[lit-ideas] Re: The Final Finger of Fate
- From: "Mike Geary" <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:22:27 -0500
A.A.
> I don't know what physics has to do with this.
Ah! That explains a lot.
> Fate has a supernatural quality to it; it can do what it wants.
Maybe if you're a 500 B.C. Greek.
>Luck conforms to all the laws of physics.
So you think it's possible NOT to conform to the laws of physics?
>> Fate has a sense of consciousness to it. There's a sense that things are
>> *meant* to be. Even in the title of this thread there's an
>> anthropomorphizing of fate. Fate is almost synonymous with God. <<
Maybe to your mind, but not that of most post 500 B.C. people. Fate means
'inevitability' to most of us non-Ancient Greek people.
> Luck is random.
And how does does random happen in a world of cause and effect?
>It's sheer coincidence, things happening.
Outside the laws of physics? Like in miracles? Do you believe in miracles or
do you believe in a helter-skelter universe? What do you mean "things
happening"?
> I say I'm a determinist? I never wrote that, you did.
You most certainly did.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Amago
To: lit-ideas
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Final Finger of Fate
--- Original Message -----
From: Mike Geary
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 9/15/2006 2:32:00 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Final Finger of Fate
A.A.
> What laws?
The laws of physics, of course.
Good parenting cannot alter the laws of physics no matter how much you wish
it could.
M.G. I see no difference between your 'luck' and my 'fate', both speak of
events beyond our control.
***A.A. Fate has a sense of consciousness to it. There's a sense that
things are *meant* to be. Even in the title of this thread there's an
anthropomorphizing of fate. Fate is almost synonymous with God. Luck is
random. It's sheer coincidence, things happening. There's no consciousness
guiding luck.
M.G. A super-determinist would say (I think) that not only is everything
beyond our control, but that there's no such thing as 'control', not as such,
that there's only what is and what is is 'in ipso, per ipso, ex ipso control'
-- or something like that, or another way of not explaining it: that there are
no laws of physics, there's only physis which is what is because it is as it
is. There's no separable governing principle, there's just physis. I love
this kind of talk. Sounds profound but who knows what it means? I think know
why they say that, but I'm not sure I agree. You say in your post you're a
determinist, but everything you argue argues against that.
***A.A. I don't use words like determinist. Not everything is beyond our
control. In fact, if you think globally but act locally, most things are in
our control. We had control over whether we invaded Iraq (just as an example).
There's plenty we can and do control, probably most of what we do. The
problem is most of our control is unconscious. That goes back to what kind of
childhood we had, which we had no control over. The better the childhood, the
more control we were given, the less control we need in adulthood, and the more
conscious, less unconscious control we exert. What we can't control is other
people, and that's what most people try to control.
A.A. (responding to: "I have no idea to what degree determinism
'determines' our lives.")
>Luck, how well we're nurtured and how well our genes hold up.
I don't know what this means.
***A.A. Luck is who we got for parents, see above. Likewise luck if you're
born healthy or disabled. Sheer luck. Unless you think it's fate, which would
imply some malevolent deity.
A.A. (responding to: "But maybe we're not determined. Perhaps we are
agents acting variously freely in the world. Are we?")
>If we're free agents, then we're evil. Thrown out of Grace, etc.
I don't know what this means either.
***A.A. What can it mean? That if human actions have in fact been
voluntary throughout history, then humans are downright evil because their
actions have been evil. If, on the other hand, we say people are damaged
(Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, even Bush), then we have some control over what
happens to humanity. People like to use words like 'evil'. Nice and simple.
Call someone evil, kill em, you're done. How we raise humans beings is too
complicated for most people to want to be bothered with.
A.A.(responding to: "We don't have any choice but to live our lives as
though we are creatures of free will.")
>Then we're evil. Or lying to ourselves.
M.G. I don't know what this means either.
***A.A. Free will is an illusion. We do what we're programmed to do, or
not do. And, yes, we're programmed in childhood.
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