[lit-ideas] Re: Suicide in Europe
- From: Judith Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:33:39 +0000 (GMT)
Lawrence
>>>>>>>>>>>
Thornton probably didn't have the 2004 edition of WHO's book on suicide when he
wrote his own book. Interestingly, WHO's reputation doesn't seem
sterling<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(
it doesn't really matter as the only statistic of his I queried, after seeing
the WHO figures,is the Luxemburg one. (Luxemburg is perhaps bestleft out of the
discussion, though, as it's so small.
I do need some clarification here on what Thornton means by Europe. You quote
him as saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
France's suicide rate is about twice that of the United States', as are
Belgium's, Luxembourg's, Finland's Austria's, and Switzerland
<<<<<<<<<<<
but on the figures I have (WHO, yes) this is not quite right. However, my
>>>>>>>>>>>>
,That leaves us, pending further investigation, with four European
countries with higher suicide rates than those of the US and of other
European countries.
<<<<<<<<<<
only holds for the definition of Europe I assumed he was using (suicide rates
are high in most of Eastern Europe).
so we need to know more. Meanwhile I'll note the obvious: suicide rates are
significantly higher in the US than in Britain, the Netherlands, Italy and
Spain. (There are others I haven't checked.
Now what about his
"in many European countries, suicide is the second leading cause of death,
after accidents,"
?
as I said, this is for teenagers, it varies greatly across Europe. Yes, it is
lower in the US, (where homicide is the second cause, suicide, third). Why does
Thornton say this?
By the way, I realise his general "suicide thesis" is about something else.
But isn't his use of these figures a bit sloppy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why
the West has bifurcated, Western Europe one way and America (or
Anglo-America?) another is something I have an ongoing interest in.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
yes, it is interesting. And the idea (yes I did read all of your blog post!)
that the difference may relate to the effects of WWII is also interesting. But
European "paternalism" has long roots. There's work on the origins and
development of welfare states in Europe that's relevant here.
Judy Evans, Cardiff
--- On Sat, 20/11/10, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [lit-ideas] Suicide in Europe
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 22:28
Judy, Thornton published his book in 2007. His references on the subject of
suicide are "European suicide rates: World Health Organization, Suicide
Prevention in Europe (2002), "American: National Institute for Mental Health,
In Harms Wary: Suicide in America (2003)." Thornton probably didn't have the
2004 edition of WHO's book on suicide when he wrote his own book.
Interestingly, WHO's reputation doesn't seem sterling:
http://info-wars.org/2009/11/26/world-health-organization-manufactured-the-global-swine-flu-scare-suspected-of-corruption/
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/111867
http://www.rense.com/general88/megawho.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/who/index.htm Of course Thornton's "suicide"
has most to do with the reduction of the production of children and the
importation of immigrants to make up the short fall so the European elderly can
continue their retirement entitlements. A lot that is in his book
seems a rehashing of material I've read elsewhere. My own tangent was based
more on books I read about Europe (including those by Tony Judt) after World
War II than Thornton's reference to actual suicide, that is, I had been
thinking about that for some time. Why the West has bifurcated, Western Europe
one way and America (or Anglo-America?) another is something I have an ongoing
interest in. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judith Evans
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 11:50 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Europe, World War II, Suicide and Jason Bourne I am
not sure what the various figures actually measure, Lawrence, but for what it's
worth, reported/recorded suicide rates in European countries are not uniformly
higher than in the USA. Also I don't know what Thornton's sources are, but
mine say Luxemburg's figures are more or less identical to the USA's. That
leaves us, pending further investigation, with four European countries with
higher suicide rates than those of the US and of other European countries.
more importantly, Thornton says (I copy the quotation from your blog)
"in many European countries, suicide is the second leading cause of death,
after accidents,"
in fact, it's the second leading cause of death, *disease apart*, **among
teenagers** in Europe (according to a WHO report of 2004). (This teenage
suicide rate varies greatly across Europe.)
That's worrying but doesn't really support your overall thesis.
Judy Evans, Cardiff, UK
and France's suicide rate is about twice that of the United States', as
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [lit-ideas] Europe, World War II, Suicide and Jason Bourne
To: "Lit-Ideas" <Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010,
18:08http://www.lawrencehelm.com/2010/11/europe-world-war-ii-suicide-and-jason.html Lawrence
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