[lit-ideas] Re: Shall But Won't
- From: Adriano Palma <Palma@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 13:11:48 +0000
Che qualcuno sia imbecille e' acclarato da tempo. Che speranza sia cretino non
ricevette attenuante alcuna da troiate come Wikipedia.
Naturalmente egli sa di merda.
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Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Shall But Won't
i. Teći će rijeke krvi.
In a message dated 11/1/2014 2:42:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Palma@xxxxxxxxxx writes:
The case in Italian is the following
ii. Scorreranno fiumi di sangue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_verbs
"Future (Il futuro semplice). The future is used for events that will happen in
the future. It is formed by adding the forms of "avere" to the infinitive (with
abbiamo and avete *retracted* to "-emo" and "-ete"
respectively). Sometimes the infinitive undergoes some changes. Firstly, the
infinitive always loses its final "-e" ["scorrere" becomes "scorrer"].
Secondly, verbs in -are end in -er, not in -ar. Stare, dare, fare however
retain star-, dar-, far-. Most irregular verbs lose the letter before the last
r altogether (e.g. avr- for avere and andr- for andare). Clusters -nr- and -lr-
are simplified to -rr (e.g. verr- for venire). Retraced infinitives are
retained (e.g. porr- for porre). Essere has sar-"
Why a form of 'avere' was chosen has a _semantic_ explanation.
iii. Fiumi di sangue scoreranno.
Literally:
iv. Rivers of blood "have" [to] flow.
exchanging the word order in (ii) from
v. Rivers of blood to flow have.
This of course has to be distinguished from
vi. Rivers of blood HAVE _flowed_.
Cfr.
vii. It _has_ to rain tomorrow.
and the over-emphatic.
viii. It will _have_ to rain tomorrow.
As for Latin,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_conjugation
"The future tense (Latin tempus futūrum simplex) expresses an uncompleted
action in the future. It is recognized by its tense signs "-bō", "-bi", "-bu",
a and ē in the indicative and the vowel ō in the imperative mood. The future
tense always refers to an incomplete action. In addition, the future tense is
stricter in usage temporally in Latin than it is in English.
Standing alone, "portābō" can mean, "I shall carry," or "I will carry." The
first and second conjugations use bō, bi and bu as signs for the future
indicative. The third and fourth conjugations replace their thematic vowels
with a, ě and ē. The fourth conjugation inserts an ǐ before the a, e and ē.
Future active indicative portāre terrēre petere audīre. Singular Plural
Singular Plural Singular Plural Singular Plural First person portābō portā
bimus terrēbō terrēbimus petam petēmus audiam audiēmus Second person portābis
portābitis terrēbis terrēbitis petēs petētis audi ēs audiētis Third person
portābit portābunt terrēbit terrēbunt petet petent audiet audient As with all
imperfective system tenses, active personal endings are removed, and passive
personal endings are put on. Portābor translates as, "I shall be carried."
Future passive indicative portāre terrēre petere audīre Singular Plural
Singular Plural Singular Plural Singular Plural First person portābor
portābimur terrēbor terrēbimur petar petēmur audiar audiēmur Second person
portāberis portābiminī terrēberis terrēbiminī petēris petē minī audiēris
audiēminī Third person portābitur portābuntur terrēbitur terrēbuntur petētur
petentur audiētur audientur Notice that the penultimate vowel in the second
person singular of portāre and terrēre is e, not i (portāberis and terrēberis,
instead of the expected portābiris and terrēbiris).
The future IMPERATIVE was a formal form of the imperative. By the classical
period, it was chiefly used in legal documents, though it retained some
currency in distinct reference to future time. A few irregular or defective
verbs (meminisse 'remember') used this form as their only imperative. "Portāt
ō" can be translated as "You shall carry". As mentioned previously, the vowel
ō is used as a sign of the future imperative.
Future active imperative portāre terrēre petere audīre Singular Plural
Singular Plural Singular Plural Singular Plural Second person portātō portā
tōte terrētō terrētōte petitō petitōte audītō audītōte Third person portātō
portantō terrētō terrentō petitō petuntō audītō audiuntō. The ending -r marks
the passive voice in the future imperative. The second person plural is absent
here. Portātor translates as "You shall be carried."
Future passive imperative portāre terrēre petere audīre Singular Plural
Singular Plural Singular Plural Singular Plural Second person portātor ——
terr ētor —— petitor —— audītor —— Third person portātor portantor terrē tor
terrentor petitor petuntor audītor audiuntor Perfective
So, I suppose that if we take 'scorrere' as maintaining the _sense_ of Latin
'excurrere', we 'will' see that there is no working with the infinitive PLUS a
form of the equivalent of 'have' but a different, unrelated, verb ending.
The reason why Old Italian (as one may call Latin) had THIS and New Latin (or
Italian, as one may call it) has THAT is an interesting one. And it's a reason
shared by apparently all Romance languages, so the change took place BEFORE
the Romance languages became, as it were, separate entities, and the changes
occurred in the territory of Italy, I would assume (rather than Gallia for
France, etc.). There should be loads of bibliography for this.
One gap is to consult Thomas Aquinas and assume he was a precursor of the
theory of Griceian implicature. He possibly noticed the change, even if he
ignored it in his writing (if not in speech: he spoke Italian).
Note that the reference to the Latin "future imperative" may puzzle some.
It seems to implicate that things like 'past imperative' are logical
possibilities but they aren't. In English, 'future imperative' seems to be
understood. The imperative MUST refer to something in the future. But since no
auxiliary verb was involved in Latin, there was such thing as 'imperative'
without the 'imperative' element (or 'desiderative' element) that 'shall'
seems to carry ("Thou shalt not kill"). And so it's natural that the Latin
language had a future neutral AND a 'future imperative'. (Grice regrets that
indeed both Latin and Greek had a much elaborate 'aspect' system that English
allows in "Aspects of Reason", when he is engaged in formalising all this with
combos of "!", "?", and the Frege assertion-sign, etc.
Cheers,
Speranza
----
From Latin excurrere, present active infinitive of excurrō.
Verb[edit]
scorrere
(intransitive) to run, to flow, to stream, to glide, to slide
(intransitive) (of time) to pass, to fly, to roll by
(transitive) to run through, to skim, to glance through, to flick through
Synonyms[edit]
(1) fluire, scivolare
(2) passare
Derived terms[edit]
scorrazzare
scorreria
scorrevole
scorribanda
scorrimento
scorso
sovrascorrere. Conjugation of scorrere
Categories: Italian terms derived from LatinItalian lemmasItalian verbsItalian
intransitive verbsItalian transitive verbsItalian irregular verbs
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