[lit-ideas] Re: Seeking the Prime source
- From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:24:14 -0000
Lawrence, there's no need to have a hissy fit just because you've been caught
out. (Teenagers eh!) And it seems we're getting back to your standard problem:
that whereas you can quote a book you're reading, nobody can comment on it
because they haven't read it. Tough I say. And to say that Steyn is in anyway
brilliant ignores the facts of his career so far: a drop out becomes a DJ who
becomes a arts critic who then (probably because of his relationship with
Conrad Balck) was switched to political comment. Steyn maybe a good writer but
all that I've read about him suggests that his only credible attribute is that
his political views match up with what by now must be a sizeable market in
right wing political punditry.
So far, beyond quoting a few fertility rate figures for European countries, you
have made no significant demographic argument, you have failed to note any
significant demographic study, you have not once referenced a European census
database, indeed, the only evidence you are able to put forward for
consideration are the anecdotals that Steyn includes in his book; it's not
sufficient to say that because there's a mosque next to Regent's Park it must
mean that Muslims are taking over Britain, or that because somebody in the
Netherlands has been stabbed by a Muslim, that country only has a fews years to
go before it adopts muslim laws.
Evidence that will impress me must include a statistical demographic model
showing how a Muslim minority of less than one per cent of the population (with
fertility rates exceeding 2) can and will outstrip the remaining 99 per cent
(with fertility rates just exceeding 1), bearing in mind that the relevent
muslim population for your argument are extremists. Since you're clearly a
demographic expert, get on Excel, construct the model and show the results.
Alternatively, search on Google and see what you can find.
Alternatively you could just revert to type and either call me an idiot or else
reject what I have to say because I've disqualified myself by not reading Steyn
or Huntingdon.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:54 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Seeking the Prime source
The trouble is, Simon, that you don't know what you're talking about. You
already admitted that you haven't read Steyn; yet you persist in trying to tell
me what he says and knows. That fits just about anyone's of "dumb.". If you
want blow smoke, and fake it, don't do it with the guy who knows you are
blowing smoke and faking it. You write as though you have an intellectual
death wish.
We've gotten into demographics a number of times in the past on Phil-Lit and
Lit-Ideas, especially several years ago as a result of reading Samuel P.
Huntington, a legitimate scholar who utilizes demographics in his arguments.
He bases major portions of his theories about the clashes of civilizations upon
his demographic studies. Had you read Huntington you wouldn't be writing as
you do. Huntington is vital to what Steyn is writing, by the way. Anyone
making comments on these subjects unless they don't mind seeming to be
ignorant, needs to read Huntington. Steyn gives evidence of reading
Huntington. Read Huntington and then try and tell me again that demographics
are self-authenticating. Read his references and you will learn that people
are devoting their lives to interpreting demographics and yet you presume to
know as much as they do by calling up something on Google? Tell me again about
your education.
Steyn is a very bright fellow and anyone who thinks that he isn't, hasn't
read him or is so prejudiced that they can't think clearly. To attack him as
being uneducated, which both you and Hari do, and in the process produce
writings that are far beneath what Steyn is producing, reflects on you and not
Steyn. Steyn in a brilliant writer. You and Hari, if Hari's review is any
example, are inferior to him by several orders of magnitude.
Lawrence
------------Original Message------------
From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, Mar-12-2007 6:00 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Seeking the Prime source
Ah the climb down. No proof pending clearly.
The trouble is Lawrence, as I keep saying, commentators like Steyn are
preaching to the converted, espousing vacuous theories that are at the same
time wrong and yet exactly what their audience wants to hear. All of the Steyn
quotes you've transcribed relate to third party anecdotals that appear to
vindicate he's central thesis that Islam is taking over Europe. This isn't
sound academic practice as you well know.
So now it turns out that even as you keep pasting the walls of Lit-Ideas with
Steyn's words you don't actually agree with what he has to say.
The Prime Source in this debate about demographics is, surprisingly enough,
demographics, not political commentary. Try looking on the net for European
census data, do some work, then come back with some results. And a hint, don't
forget the young Eastern Europeans - all most all of child bearing age - that
are streaming into Western Europe looking to work, looking to benefit from
western culture, looking to perpetuate it. Does Steyn mention these new
immigrants at all?
Simon
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