[lit-ideas] Re: Seeking the Prime source
- From: "Lawrence Helm"<lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:34:32 +0000
Andreas:
It is impossible that I could "believe" you about Huntington because. You
haven't read him and are speaking well beyond your knowledge. Besides, you
haven't said that much. You continue doing your Leftist thing via personal
attacks. Once I eliminate those from your comments, you have said almost
nothing about Huntington. And now you throw out an "oh yeah! well how about
this" argument; which isn't an argument at all as it turns out.. Perhaps you
expect me to read the Wikipedia article and figure out what the heck you're
talking about and why you think this proves something you haven't adequately
articulated. Well, I can't do that. I can't make sense of something that
isn't sensible, but I can read the article and say what I think of it.
It isn't terribly bad. It doesn't take a serious anti-Huntington stance. If
you skim the article you might obtain the idea that it does, but if you read
the whole thing you'll discover that isn't the case. No one can disprove
either Huntington or Fukuyama at this point. It is too soon to tell. The
Wiki-writer describes some of the objections to Huntington's thesis, but he
doesn't take up the major objection, that of Fukuyama's End of History. There
is one small passage that alludes to the Fukuyama concept, but he doesn't
develop it or credit Fukuyama for it. Toward the end, the reviewer
demonstrates a lack of understanding of Huntington when he writes, "Probably
the most severe critic of Huntington's theory, however, has been Huntington
himself: unnoticed by many of his readers, Huntington has modified his Clash of
Civilizations theory by using youth bulge theory as its foundation: 'I don't
think Islam is any more violent than any other religions, and I suspect if you
added it all up, more people have been slaughtered by Christians over the
centuries than by Muslims. But the key factor is the demographic factor.
Generally speaking, the people who do out and kill other people are males
between the ages of 16 and 30'. So in Essence, Huntington has shifted from a
clash of civilizations theory to a demographic theory of war, social unrest and
violence."
This comment by the Wiki-writer indicates a lack of understanding of
Huntington's thesis. Huntington described that very thing in his book; so he
isn't deviating from his book when he makes such a comment. Clashes will most
likely occur when youth of a certain age are feeling feisty and looking for
trouble. This was mentioned by Steyn and I recognized it as having come from
Huntington's book; so it does NOT represent a modification of Huntington's
view. I read a recent article in which Huntington was asked whether he
intended his thesis to apply to the world forever, and he said that he did not.
He intended his thesis to apply to the world near-term -- something like 50 or
100 years. I can't remember the number but it wasn't long term. Huntington
doesn't imagine himself a Hari Seldon.
The "war on terror" concept does not fit either Huntington's or Fukuyama's
thesis very well. Fukuyama has a vested interest in making light of this war;
so it isn't surprising that he embraced Olivier Roy's Globalized Islam. He
believes that the End of history has arrived and the winding up of minor
problems like the Islamist thing is nothing more than sweeping up the final
historical debris and putting it in the dust bin. And Huntington sees his
clashes originating in Civilizational constructs, one Civilization being no
more violent than the other. Yes, we are seeing the Islamic civilization
exerting itself now, but there will be other more serious clashes in the
future. By the way, Steyn's comments about China undercut Huntington's belief
that China will eventually replace the US as the dominant world power. China
has enforced a population-reduction policy; which suggests to Steyn that China
will not (in the foreseeable future) have the young feisty youthful population
necessary to do any serious clashing.
Also, it is very interesting that Huntington's book is popular in the Middle
East. His thesis is very popular there.
The list of possible clashes at the need of the article was interesting.
Lawrence
------------Original Message------------
From: "Andreas Ramos" <andreas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, Mar-12-2007 11:31 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Seeking the Prime source
Okay, since you won't believe me, try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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