[lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die

  • From: "Veronica Caley" <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:57:03 -0500

Andy:<May G-d be with you Marlena in adjudging Michael in ways the courts
refuse
to do.>

The courts refuse to do it because when the case first went to court, the
alleged abuse was investigated and the judge was satisfied that there was
no abuse.  People lie a lot when they want to win a case in court.  Short
of having been in the same house with Terri and Michael, the court's
findings of no abuse is good enough.
I think your analogy to this alleged abuse issue in relation to the Clinton
Whitewater case is a good one.

I learned today from a news program that judge Greer is a Baptist of the
most conservative kind.  He has resigned his membership from this group,
joining Jimmy Carter, who did it a couple of years ago.

Veronica



> [Original Message]
> From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 3/27/2005 9:28:49 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die
>
> A major flaw in this is that the facts in this case have been studied in
> the courts for over a decade.  If nothing sanctionable has surfaced yet
> (not even punishable, just sanctionable, as in a tongue lashing from a
> judge), then it's not there.  But that hasn't stopped people from accusing
> Michael of whatever moves them, from domestic violence to murder. 
Marlena,
> with all due respect, you are a member of the religious right,  however
> recovering.  Your comments are therefore not exactly impartial.  This is
> like the Clinton White Water thing,  5 years, $40 million and at least two
> prosecutors wasn't enough to prove the Clinton's innocence to a lot of
> people.  
>
> Regarding the eating disorder, I'm no expert, but my understanding is that
> the seeds for emotional problems like eating disorders are laid while a
> child is growing up.  By the time people are of marrying age, their
> personalities are fully formed, which includes the way people respond to
> stress.  Also, worst case scenario, let's assume for a minute that Michael
> did beat Terry.  What might that say about Terry?  Let's try a few
> possibilities, you can add some.  How about (1) Terry was a very bad judge
> of character such that she couldn't see Michael for what he was before she
> married him.  We'll take that off the list because con men sociopaths are
> by definition excellent deceivers.  Okay, let's try (2) Terry was
> hoodwinked, charmed into marriage, then, finding herself in an abusive
> situation, was unable to ask for help, including returning to her parents'
> home if a shelter was beneath her.  Why was she unable to ask her parents
> for help, and if she did, why didn't they give it?   How about (3) she
> never learned how to relate in her family, wherein she learned how to have
> an eating disorder, knew they were incapable of hearing her, put image
over
> substance, and played out the victim role she learned at home.  The bottom
> line is, her parents got parental urges long after Terry needed them. 
> Demonizing Michael may make them feel better about their all too human
> failings.  Michael has become a punching bag for issues people have in
> their own lives.  
>
> May G-d be with you Marlena in adjudging Michael in ways the courts refuse
> to do.
>
>
> Andy Amago
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: <Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 3/26/2005 12:53:27 PM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die
> >
> > In a message dated 3/26/2005 7:40:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
> > aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
> > Even if this was
> > true, the fact that the courts didn't take Michael's behavior, whatever
it
> > was, into account says it's beside the point and certainly not illegal. 
> > Dear Andy,
> > Much as I might want to sympathize with Michael, I cannot...it IS true
> that 
> > he barred her parents from the room...and it is true, as well, that he
> has also 
> > already 'moved on'.  If he was, indeed, engaging in domestic violence,
> the 
> > eating disorder she had could have been a result of that (and, as you
> state, it 
> > is sometimes about power/control...and so perhaps it was the only
control
> she 
> > had over her own life OR maybe it was because he was not happy that she 
> > weighted 150 lbs [what she weighed when they marred--but she had always
> had 
> > fluctuating weight as many of us do] and so she had to do what she could
> in order to 
> > please him (esp if he got mad...)   Lest you think that all men engaging
> in 
> > domestic violence are brutes that show that behavior in the open, let me
> assure 
> > that there are many many who are extremely clever--very winsome, in
fact.
>
> > It would have been such a little 'gift' for her parents to have felt
that 
> > they, as well, had 'tried everything' (presuming that is what Michael
> felt that 
> > he had done).  The fact that her brain MAY be now in a state where it
> would be 
> > next to impossible to revitalize is not relevant to the discussion of
> what he 
> > ought to have done ... at the point when he barred her parents from
their 
> > daughter's room.  Okay--maybe it was not "illegal" but I do think it was
> horrible 
> > and mean and rotten.  And, I do not 'judge' easily--I will evaluate
> whenever 
> > possible and not judge.  Had her parents *really* felt that they had
done
> all 
> > that they could do--perhaps they could have eased her away much more
> easily.   
> > If, as Michael says, Terri was not conscious, not feeling anything--then
> what 
> > would it have hurt to have allowed them to try 'everything'?  To be
> there, for 
> > her, to see for themselves?  (Being from Missouri <g>, I understand the 
> > concept of that...)  It would have done no harm to him--and much much
for
> her 
> > parents--and for those of us who believe in science and miracles [often 
> > scientifically based but not known at the time], maybe the one odd time
> when someone does 
> > recover...
> >
> > If this was about the 'living' and not the 'dead' (in Michael's mind)
> then he 
> > ought to have cared about how to assist walking THEM through this.  They
> were 
> > certainly there from the beginning--and were her parents.  Sure, the
> marriage 
> > takes precedence over the parent/child relationship--but that
> parent/child 
> > relationship is still there.  And, if nothing else--you walk people
> through 
> > their darkness--you don't just leave them there.
> >
> > My former library director was in a coma three times...the last time
for 
> > quite some time.  (He had also been given three months to live--in the
> beginning)  
> >  Sometimes you just do NOT know what will bring someone out of
something 
> > where they are...and sure, if you have all the information (as Andreas
> had) and if 
> > you had tried everything (like the wife of my former library director
was 
> > doing) and then still had no hope--then sure...go through the grieving
> process 
> > and learn to let someone go back to the Presence.  (my belief system
<g>)
>
> > But--if you have not the information and you had not been able to do/try
> all that 
> > was possible--how could you?  
> >
> > It may not be that they are afraid of death--it may be that you simply
> love 
> > life so much and you want the rest of those you love and care for (and
> maybe 
> > even just like <G>) to learn how to do that, too.  After walking through
> the dar
> > kness that I did--and it was--I will walk beside those who enter in my
> life 
> > and will be passionate about them walking through their darkness and not
> giving 
> > up.  It's horrible and it is hard -- but it IS possible and it IS worth
> it.  
> > and maybe that is where her parents are--to just hold their daughter
> again 
> > (does anyone know if Michael is even now allowing them THAT?)  I
remember
> what it 
> > was like when I was in the hospital across town from my child who was in
> his 
> > hospital.  It is the most horrible feeling--and I somehow managed to
make
> them 
> > release me before they wanted to--I simply could not stand it.  I
cannot 
> > imagine how horrible it would be to be barred from my child's room as
> they were.  
> > For not reason other than he didn't want them to do and to try... 
Sounds
> like 
> > a power-control issue on his part to me...
> >
> > Still sad,
> > Marlena in Missouri 
> >
> >
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