----- Original Message ----- From: To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 9/2/2005 1:31:09 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Religious folk and Katrina In a message dated 9/1/2005 8:37:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time, aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: A.A. Marlena, you've done a good job as G-d's representative on this list. But, He doesn't care and you're not going to convince no matter what you say. Besides, Milton already justified God's ways to man, so you don't have to. Dear Andy, I didn't think you had asked to be convinced as to whether or not G-d cared. Certainly, the LAST thing I am about is to 'convince' or sway ANYONE to any particular point of view-- A.A. I only meant don't sweat it. Marlena: In fact, since we, ourselves, are constantly changing--inside and out--I'm not sure that even when we share to or with another something intricate-that it is necessarily the same thing that we will believe in the next few moments. A.A. I'm not sure I agree. Most people's belief systems are unshakeable. Most never question anything, least of all their conviction in God. Marlena: He also mentioned that asking questions is very important to them...and, truly, I knew more people there than I would have thought. If you ever are inclined to belong to a community of faith, Andy, you ought to go visit them ... and as lots of them do NOT believe in G-d, higher power, or much of anything except maybe science--you'd probably have a good time. I'm not as much 'in your face' with the questions as they are and they are, supposedly, because to them the asking of the questions is as fun as finding the answers--more of the 'life is a process/journey/that sort of thing. I'm not into the process or the journey. I'm into the destination. I'd rather sit by the tree and look at the waterfall than actually travel TO the waterfall... A.A. Sounds encouraging. Are you metaphorically not into the journey, or literally? Your example is literal. The expression is metaphorical, sort of permission to relax and enjoy life because there really is no destination except death except whatever destination we impose on ourselves. As I understand it anyway. Marlena: MOST of the people assisting and helping are faith-based. A.A. Most people are faith-based. Most, as in 94% in this country, according to Newsweek. Therefore, most of the people assisting and helping are faith-based. Marlena: Now, maybe you could argue that they would do so anyway--even if they were not 'faith-based'--for many perhaps are faith-based because the people need to be able to say that their desire to assist comes from 'somewhere' and they cannot accept that maybe they are simply really nice and helpful people. A.A. Why does the impulse to help have to come from somewhere? Why can't people just do something because it's the right thing to do, the good feeling thing to do? Instead, they do it because God wants them to. You're not raising my already low opinion of the human race, Marlena. Marlena: In fact, these [religiously based charity] organizations were in touch with each other and dividing up what each would do IF something bad happened BEFORE the hurricane happened. Truly, they make me wish THEY had been in charge of FEMA...<sigh> A.A. That's exactly Bush's sentiment. He meant to do away with government sponsored disaster relief, from SS all the way up through natural disasters. He got his wish. We'll see how good charities are with rebuilding infrastructure. Did you read John's post about Bush and FEMA? Marlena: One interesting point of view which, I think, is a better description of what the 'traditional' Christian believes in terms of 'why this' is explained in this open letter to the Baptist world... What SOME of the more conservative-leaning Christians believe (which is not what ALL believe--and not what a liberal leaning Christian might believe--esp not the ones I know) is that after Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden (ie The Fall), the "world" was not ever the same--and that the scriptures which talk about how "all creation groans" is because it wants things to go back to what it was supposed to be like... MY viewpoint is NOT this one. But, it would seem to be a fairly clear representation of what the 'word on the street' would be with the primarily 'red' version of the fundamentalist or conservative type [Catholics may have their own reasons--and many of them are 'red' too...) Signing off as a Blue in Red Land and wishing she and her son had joined the Civil Air Patrol instead of the Boy Scouts so that she could be down there helping right now... A.A. Excerpting from the below: "We know, however, that at its root this natural disaster isn't natural at all. It is a creation crying out, "Adam, where are you?" ... My hometown isn't there anymore. But, then again, it never really was. The hope after Katrina is not for civil defense and architectural rebuilding. It is for Biloxi, Miss., and all of the created universe, to be redeemed and restored in Christ. There will come a day when the curse is reversed, and the Gulf Coast along with the entire cosmos fully reflects the glory of a resurrected Messiah." We used to a modern superpower. Now we could be any third world country, standing on the banks of the flood, waiting for God to help us out. Yes, the power of faith. Andy Amago Marlena in Missouri FIRST-PERSON: Christ, Katrina, and my hometown By Russell D. Moore LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--In a very real sense, my hometown no longer exists. And I watched it all on CNN. I am from Biloxi, Miss. My family members are there now, enduring the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina despite pleas to evacuate. The house I grew up in is a complete catastrophe, but at least it was not completely swept away. And as I spend most of the night praying and flipping from CNN to FOX News to MSNBC, I am reminded of how unnatural natural disasters really are. The news reports, both nationally televised and through the south Mississippi grapevine, sound almost like a bad apocalyptic novel. Beauvoir, the Biloxi home of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, was destroyed. This old Coast landmark had stood since 1854. The home of my friend and former boss, U.S. Rep. Gene Taylor, was destroyed and washed away. He and his wife, Margaret, have lost everything. The mausoleums in some of the graveyards are said to have opened, with coffins and bodies floating down the streets. I watch the news reports, watching the place where I proposed to my wife, the place where I surrendered to ministry, the place where I ran down the beaches with my brothers, and all of it is gone. As Christians we know something about Katrina that the rest of the world just can?t know: This is not the way it is meant to be. The Psalmist reminds us that God originally put all things under the feet of Adam (Psalm 8:6). But the writer of Hebrews reminds us that we do not yet see all things under the feet of humanity (Hebrews 2:8), although we do see a crucified and resurrected Jesus (Hebrews 2:9). The apostle Paul likewise reminds us that the creation itself groans under the reign of sin and death, waiting for its rightful rulers to assume their thrones in the resurrection (Romans 8:20-23). The storms and the waves are one more reminder that the "already" has not yet been replaced by the "not yet." Against the backdrop of the hurricane, consider the contrast between the prophet Jonah and the Messiah Jesus. Like Jonah, Jesus is confronted by a seemingly murderous storm, with his fellow travelers convinced they would perish. Whereas Jonah the sinner could only still the storm by throwing himself into its midst, Jesus exercises dominion over the winds and the waves with his voice. Mark reminds us that the boat's occupants remarked: "Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?" (Mark 4:41). The CNN meteorologists can explain the hurricane only in terms of barometric pressure and water temperatures. We know, however, that at its root this natural disaster isn't natural at all. It is a creation crying out, "Adam, where are you?" My hometown isn't there anymore. But, then again, it never really was. The hope after Katrina is not for civil defense and architectural rebuilding. It is for Biloxi, Miss., and all of the created universe, to be redeemed and restored in Christ. There will come a day when the curse is reversed, and the Gulf Coast along with the entire cosmos fully reflects the glory of a resurrected Messiah. And John sees in his vision that, on that day, "the sea was no more" (Revelation 21:1). He also sees that in the Holy City, "nothing unclean will ever enter it" (Revelation 21:27). That includes the curse of Eden and all of its children: including a hurricane named Katrina. On that day, and not until then, nothing will ever threaten the New Jerusalem, our hometown. -- -- Russell D. Moore is dean of the School of Theology and senior vice president for academic administration at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.