[lit-ideas] Re: Rapture

  • From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:33:59 EDT

Would you prefer a utopian world populated by automatons?   Borgs?  Who have 
no choice but to do The Right Thing?
 
Julie Krueger
btw, many of us who believe there is a Creator, no matter what our  
understanding of that may be, lash out at the Creator in anger.  The  Creator 
seems to 
welcome our wrestling.  See Jacob.

========Original Message========     Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Rapture  Date: 
8/3/05 9:51:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time  From: _aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) , _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent 
on:    

I'm just curious, Marlena, when you say, "and it is a way that causes one  to 
identfy more fully with the 'heart' of a Creator who Cares'..." how do you  
account for all the evil in the world?  Free will, that god doesn't get  
involved in people's choices?  He kind of stands back and lets his sheep  walk 
off 
the cliff?  That he only cares about those who do proper homage to  him?  Do 
bad things never befall those who do proper homage?   Seriously, how do you 
account for the horrendous evil in the world?  
 
 
 


 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:   (mailto:eternitytime1@xxxxxxx) 
To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
Sent: 8/3/2005 4:26:07 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Rapture



Dear Andy,
Lest you (and any others) think that this is the only Christian  viewpoint, 
please let me remind you that it is not.
 
Sure, there is a viewpoint of those who believe in the "rapture" are  buying 
into (and it is a racket <g>) of the (especially) American  mindset of 
survivalism, 'us-versus-them', and such--but there are other voices  'out 
there'.  
(Granted, in this day and age of adventure thrillers, there  seems to be even 
more of a desire within people to feel, if not in  control of their own lives, 
then at least to know there is an 'escape  route'.)
 
I will suggest, again, that you get the book: The Raputre Exposed: The  
Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation by Barbara R. Rossing.
 
She does give a history (as did the link you sent) of the history of the  
Rapture--but then she also discusses the ramifications of such a viewpoint (as  
you have already observed):
 
"This kind of speculation would be amusing if it were not so dangerous.  God 
created the earth's mountains and deserts and called them 'good'--they are  
not worthless to their Creator. Earth's atmosphere, too, was created by God,  
and God laments over it when we destroy it. The atmosphere is under assault  
today from ozone depletion, increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide that  
cause global warming, and other wounds--but those are wounds caused by humans.  
The atomosphere is not the abode of Satan. The view that total planetary and  
atmospheric destruction must take place on earth before God's renewing vision  
of "New Jerusalem" can come into the world is not biblical. It leads to  
appalling ethics."
 
(her appalling ethics comment was kind of appropriate given we have been  
discussing such concepts...)
In a sense, the differences between the 'rapture is coming' folk and the  
other types is almost the differences between those who go deeper into the  
'inner moral sense' and those who do not... (speculation here, mind you--just  
playing with matching ideas and such)
 
I liked her analysys of the differences between the Left Behind novels  and 
CS Lewis' Narnia series. The two really are the differences between those  who 
would rather simply escape going 'deep' and learning and growing (unable,  
perhaps, to see the adventure it is? Or, perhaps, have not been shown/taught  
that there is a different path to follow? Kind of like people often choose to  
be 
either victims or victimizers--unable to find or even to know that there is  
a third way out...):
 
"The British author C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, a popular seriesof  
Christian novels from the mid-twentieth century, depicts salvation in a much  
more earth-affirming way than the Left Behind story. When Lucy and her  
companions finally come into the "New Narnia" at the end of their  jounrey  in 
Lewis' 
The Last Battle, it is not an escape from their  homeland but rather a going 
through a door more deeply into God's  picture, into the world. The travelers 
slowly come to realize that the place  is the very same place as the world they 
left behind: the same hills as those  in their hometown, the same house, but 
everything is more radiant. The color  blue is bluer. It is "more like the the 
real thing". New Narnia is different  from old Narnia in being a "deeper 
country: every rock and flower and blade of  grass looked as if it meant more."
     New Narnia is "world within world," Lucy  realizes. The Faun Tumnus 
explains the within-ness of God's vision for our  world: "You are now looking 
at 
the England within England, the real England."  Most importantly, in Lewis' 
vision--contrary to the destructive Rapture  script--"no good thing is 
destroyed." 
 
she goes on:
 
"The Narnia story's ending gives a much truer reading of the final vision  of 
hte book of Revelation than the Left Behind story. The Narnia story is also  
more faithful to the biblical covenant with Noah. The Book of Genesis tells  
how, after the flood, God made a covenant with Noah never again to destoy the  
earth: "I willnever again curse the ground because of humankind...nor will I  
ever again destroy every living creature as I have done." Does Revelation now  
negate that covenant with Noah, as Rapture enthusiasts suggest? Has God's 
mind  changed? 
 
(She also goes on to refute the argument that God only meant destruction  by 
flood...)
 
She also discusses the ages old belief that this world is simply too  awful 
and our only way out is escape. (often, I grant you, a sense that most  of us 
at one time or another have to face...)
 
Here is another passage (I like this book's quotes and how they all ltie  
together...little snippets of stories...)
 
The nineteenth-century former slave Sojourner Truth criticized the  escapiest 
and self-centeredness in the Rapture rhetoric among Christians of  her day. 
In response to claims that Christians are taken up to some parlor in  heaven to 
escape destruction, she underscored that God stays with us on earth  and 
walks with us through every trial:
 
You seem to be expecting to go to some parlor away up somewhere, and when  
the wicked have been burnt, you are coming back to walk in triumph over their  
ashes-this is to be your New Jerusalem!! Now I can't see anything so very nice  
in that, coming back to such a muss as that will be, a world covered with the 
 ashes of the wicked. Besides, if the Lord comes and burns--as you say he  
will--I am not going away; I am going to stay herean d stand the fire, like  
Shadrach, Meshach and Abegnego! And Jesus will walk with me in the fire, and  
keep me from harm (Quoted in Lee Griffith, War on Terrorism and the Terror of  
of 
God. Grand Rapis, Mich: Eerdmans, 2002)
 
Jesus walks with us through the fire. That is the message of the book of  
Reveloation, as Sojourney Truth articulated."
 
and then
 
"Whatever future events await the earth, the biblical message is that God  
comes down to earth to live on it with us. Earthquakes, darkness, plagues? God  
comes. Are hearts breaking? Is all hope lost? God comes."
 
As she says--even when speaking of the *why* Jesus came--God loves the  world 
enough to live in it. God loves the world enough to dwell in the  smallest 
object--a sweet little wild flower, a bunny eating my garden  <g>.  He does not 
come to take us away from the earth, to take us  away from those who suffer, 
to take us away from those who hurt.  He is  there to rejoice in our joys and 
suffer, with us, in our pain...and we who  follow him are also called to do the 
same--not to say that God is so removed  from the earth that he is simply 
inflicting horrific things like earthquakes  and tsumanis on it--
 
She goes on and talks about the purpose, even, of biblical prophecy and  how 
'predicting the future is not hte biblical meaning of prophecy, in either  the 
Christian or Jewish tradition. When Revelation calls itself prophecy it is  
situating its message in line with other biblical prophets like Jeremiah and  
Isaiah. Those prophets' task was to speak God's word-a word of salvation and  
justice for God's people and for the world. Their task was to set God's vision  
before the people so they could see it and live it. Propets condemn injustice 
 and greed; they advocate for the poor, for widows and orphans."
 
She goes on and discusses the concept of dispensationists, of  metaphorical, 
symbolic and literal language are used in and by those who  advocate the 
Rapture as a destructive entity coming to earth...
 
There is much in this book to recommend itself to anyone who is looking  at 
differing viewpoints of the Rapture--it is very clear to me, too, Andy,  that 
the ones who 'believe' in what they have been taught in terms of the  Rapture 
are caught and trapped in a world that is tense...but they don't have  to view 
it that way at all!!
 
Life without a Rapture coming can be extremely fulfilling as a  
"Believer"--though I think one does have to get to know the  
Universe/G-d/Jesus/Mother-Father God/Love/Truth/Beauty/etc. in a more dynamic  
way--and it is a way that 
causes one to identfy more fully with the 'heart' of  a Creator who 
Cares'...for 
as I tell those I love when they go through parts  of life--"I cannot take it 
from you, but I wlll climb beside you on this cliff  all the way up and tell 
you, when I can, of any jags or loose rock. I will  catch you if you fall and 
place you back on as solid footing as exists."   I do that because I am 
learning that more and more that the Creator that *I*  have been reconnecting 
to does 
that, as well...and the Creator that I know  hovers over all of us <g> [I 
have a story about the pros and cons of  'hovering' someday to share...]
 
Just like digging deeper into figuring out this whole inner moral sense  can 
be just as adventurous as hiking or kayaking or canoing--or sailing or  
sitting on a mountain overlooking a sweet pasture, so can life without a  
Rapture...though it takes a bit more thought <G> and perhaps  energy...
 
I hope that if anyone read to the end of this that it made some  sense!
 
Back in Texas again,
Marlena usually in her suburb in Missouri (where even the Catholics are  
Baptists...and the Rapture is taken for granted by all...)
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Amago  <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas  <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx


 
I pulled this off of Google about the rapture.  People who believe  in 
rapture are essentially saying God loves them best.  Everybody thinks  God 
loves 
them best.   God can do that I guess.
 
 
_http://www.rusearching.com/leftbehind/leftrapturehistory.htm_ 
(http://www.rusearching.com/leftbehind/leftrapturehistory.htm) 
 
 




Other related posts: