[lit-ideas] Re: Radical Islam and Radical Americanism
- From: Mike Geary <jejunejesuit.geary2@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:27:07 -0500
LAWRENCE: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not
murder,' and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell
you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."
MOI: That's funny. Surely you don't really believe this. God's killing
fields in the Old Testament testify to our need for a murderous God. The
Abrahamic God is the model for all horror-film monsters. He drowns us, he
burns us, he buries us alive, he hurls wind borne things through us. He
smashes the heads of babies against the rocks.
Many commentators today show that far from being nonviolent, the Bible is
really full of violence. In a sense, they are right. The representation of
violence in the Bible is enormous and more vivid, more evocative, than in
mythology and even Greek tragedy. If we compare Judaic texts to pagan ones,
we find that the amount of represented violence is greater in the first than
in the second. (comment on Rene Girard's "Violence In Biblical Narrative"
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_and_literature/v023/23.2girard.html
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible we read:
1. If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you
"dash them in pieces." 2:8-9<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/2.html#8>
2. Kiss the Son or God will get angry and might have to kill you.
2:12<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/2.html#12>
3. God has smitten his "enemies upon the cheek bone" and has "broken the
teeth of the ungodly." 3:7<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/3.html#7>
4. Christians often say that one should love the sinner but hate the sin.
Perhaps, but God hates sinners and plans to destroy them.
5:5-6<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/5.html#5>
5. God has prepared deadly weapons (swords, bows, etc.) and plans to use
them. 7:11-13 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/7.html#11>
6. If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you.
9:3-6<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/9.html#3>
7. God will rain fire and brimstone on "wicked" folks.
11:6<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/11.html#6>
8. The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war.
18:34<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/18.html#34>
9. If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death.
21:9-10 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/21.html#9>
10. God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows.
21:12<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/21.html#12>
11. A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be
dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let
destruction come upon him at unawares."
35:6,8<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/35.html#6>
12. God laughs at those that he will later torment.
37:13<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/37.html#13>
13. If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces.
50:22<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/50.html#22>
14. If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the
"righteous" will laugh at you.
52:5-7<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/52.html#5-7>
15. Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon
them, and let them go down quick into hell."
55:15<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/55.html#15>
16. The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their
mouth ... let them be cut in pieces."
58:6-7<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/58.html#6>
17. "The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being
dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood.
Now *that's* entertainment!
58:10<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/58.html#10>
18. The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any
mercy. 59:5 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/59.html#5>
19. God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them.
59:8<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/59.html#8>
20. "The God of mercy" will let the psalmist see his enemies tormented.
59:10 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/59.html#10>
21. "Consume them in thy wrath, consume them." -- more sweet prayers to a
savage god. 59:13 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/59.html#13>
22. Joab returned, and smote of Edom in the valley of salt twelve
thousand. 60:1 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/60.html#1>
23. God will "wound the head of his enemies" so that the righteous can
wash their feet "in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs
in the same." 68:21, 23 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/68.html#21>
24. The psalmist prays that his enemies be tormented and blinded by God.
He asks God to "make their loins continually to shake."
69:23-28<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/69.html#23>
25. "They that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all
them that go a whoring from thee."
73:27<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/73.html#27>
26. "The LORD heard this" (he had his hearing aid on) and became angry,
and burned people "because they believed not in God."
78:21-22<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/78.html#21>
27. "The wrath of God came upon them" and God killed many of the
Israelites for not believing in "his wondrous works."
78:31-34<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/78.html#31>
28. The psalmist asks God to " do unto them as unto the Midianites ...
which became as dung for the earth."
83:9-18<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/83.html#9>
29. If you don't follow God's commandments, he will beat you with a rod.
89:31-32 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/89.html#31>
30. "A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about."
97:3 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/97.html#3>
31. "I will ... destroy all the wicked of the land."
101:8<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/101.html#8>
32. God gives the lions their meat. The cruelty and brutality of nature
are all part of God's plan.
104:21<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/104.html#21>
33. The psalmist recounts God's treatment of the Egyptians: "He smote the
firstborn in their land." See
Ex.12:29-30<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/12.html#29>for the
gory details.
105:29-36 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/105.html#29>
34. God is praised for the creative ways that he kills people: drowning,
earth-swallowing, burning, etc.
106:11-19<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/106.html#11>
35. God sent a plague on the Israelites for "committing whoredom with the
daughters of Moab." But "then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment [by
throwing a spear through a newly married couple]: and so the plague was
stayed." But not before 24,000 (1
Cor.10:8<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/10.html#8>says 23,000)
had died. (See
Num.25:6-9 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/25.html#6> for all the
gory details.) 106:29-30<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/106.html#29>
36. The psalmist asks God to do all sorts of unpleasant things to his
enemies. "Set thou a wicked man over him; and let Satan stand at his right
hand .... Let his prayer become sin." He asks God to take away his
possessions, kill him, and have his children suffer for the sins of their
fathers. 109:6-14 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/109.html#6>
37. "Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow."
109:9<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/109.html#9>
38. "Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg."
109:10<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/109.html#10>
39. God will "fill the places with dead bodies" of heathens.
110:6<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/110.html#6>
40. God is praised for slaughtering kings, nations, and little
babies. 135:8,
10 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/135.html#8>
41. "To him that smote Egypt in their first born: for his mercy endures
forever." 136:10 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/136.html#10>
42. God "overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy
endureth for ever." 136:15<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/136.html#15>
43. God "smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever."
136:17-18<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/136.html#17>
44. "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against
the stones." 137:9 <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/137.html#9>
45. The psalmist excels at hating. He hates people with a "perfect
hatred" and asks God to kill them.
139:19-22<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/139.html#19>
46. A prayer that God will burn people to death.
140:10<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/140.html#10>
47. The God of Peace teaches us to kill each other in war.
144:1<http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/144.html#1>
48. The saints praise God while they kill and enslave "the heathen."
149:5- <http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/149.html#5>
To view the actual verses go to
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/cr_list.html
Ya gotta love the Abrahamic God -- and Judaism and Christianity and Islam.
Love, love, love. Love is all you. Oh yeah. That and a new God.
Mike Geary
conjuring a new God in Memphis
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Lawrence Helm
<lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> Donal,
>
>
>
> Interesting. I think you side with Mike on this. The Christian principle
> I am referring to, (abandoning my oversimplification), is as follows
> (Matthew 5:21-22, using the NIV):
>
>
>
> "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,'
> and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that
> anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."
>
>
>
> Much has been written about this principle. The International Critical
> Commentary, *Matthew, *Volume I by Davies and Allison, page 509, for
> example: "According to Moses, those who commit murder will suffer
> punishment. According to Jesus, those who direct anger towards a brother
> and speak insulting words should or will suffer punishment. It is thereby
> stated that it is not sufficient for followers of Jesus to refrain from the
> act of murder. They must do more. They must go to the source and root
> out all anger. In this way will the violent impulse to murder not arise
> in the first place. . . . Furthermore, by making the punishment for anger
> the same as that for murder (a clear hyperbole), anger and harsh words are
> made out to be not two human shortcomings among others but grievous sins to
> be exorcised at all costs. (See also 1 Jn 3:15: "Anyone who hates his
> brother is a murderer")
>
>
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Donal McEvoy
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 12:03 PM
>
> *To:* lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* [lit-ideas] Re: Radical Islam and Radical Americanism
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 3/11/10, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Donal,
>
> Excellent post!>
>
> Not grammatically, for sure. But thanks, I guess.
>
> Small point:-
> > But from a Christian standpoint, and Mike was after all raised a
> Catholic, hatred in one's heart for one's brother is tantamount to killing
> him>.
>
> Where is this standpoint shown to be a, or the, specifically Christian one?
>
> As a general proposition, saying that wishing someone dead is tantamount to
> killing them, would be tantamount to saying the start of every slippery
> slope is tantamount to whatever is at a bottom of the slope. And that surely
> is, at least tantamount to, false.
>
> Donal
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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