"Depends on what you mean by "man", doesn't it? If one means that the individual person is the measure of all things, then I agree with Plato and John. But if man is taken to be "the cultural consensus", then I think Plato and John are wrong. What else is there but the cultural consensus to give meaning." Problem with Protagoras is: 1. He is dismissed as a sophist, but as Larry Kramer has pointed out elsewhere, those are the _real_ sophoi. 2. You won't find his theories unless it's via the bias of Plato. I tend to incline with Geary to the feeling that Protagoras is right. Children are usually (well, teenagers) using rules to measure this and that, and sometimes their own membra viril. The human being is very concerned about measures. Protagoras generalizes out of that and says that "Man" (Anthropos), by which he must mean the _genus_ is the measure of all things. Think of a glass of water. The measure of the glass is (must) be proportioanl to the measure of the man. We don't want too big a glass, nor too little. Ditto with trousers, etc. I cannot think of one item that man uses that he doesn't need it in the Right Size, which is the right size for "Man". Cheers, JL ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com