-----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Jan 2, 2005 10:15 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Priorities Gad! I remember in my younger days people told me I was so argumentative, I'd argue with a tree stump. When I argue with Andy, I recall those days :-( A.A. I wonder why you need to preface your speeches with derogatory personal remarks. L.H. The operative word, Andy is "middle." There was a major war in Iraq but the war-part is over. A.A. Nobody anywhere ever contested that we could knock the hornets nest off the perch. What was never considered was what to do after the hornets nest was knocked down. Never even thought about. L.H. We are not in the MIDDLE of it any longer. A.A. We lost most of our soldiers following the war in ever escalating numbers and ever escalating violence. If you prefer to euphemize what's going on, by all means do so. If you know where we are in this war, is it because you have special information unknown to everyone else, or you can simply see into the future? L.H. What is going on is an insurgent reaction AFTER the war. A.A. No shit. Is that what's going on? I'll bet it took the administration completely by surprise too. L.H. Think of the French insurgency after the Germans defeated the French in WWII (I'm sure you can look that up). There had been a war against the French. It was over. The French were defeated, but French resistance (insurgency) fought on. Think also of the French war against Germany as a subset of the larger war called World War II. The Iraqi war along with the Afghan War are subsets of the War against Terror. A.A. It's interesting that you use the French WWII model, since I recently heard an interview that made the point that the administration thought that our forces were going to be greeted by the Shiites the way the French greeted the Americans after WWII, i.e., as liberators. And, you're exactly right, the insurgency fought on. L.H. The Left-Leaning media is getting in the way of "the war." Yes, the larger war against Terror. This is the war we will have to continue to fight until the Islamists give up their goal of 1) a greater Muslim Arabia as one united ummah and 2) their conquering of the entire world for Islam (a goal voiced by Sayyid Qutb and repeated by Osama bin Laden). A.A. I saw Fog of War on Saturday. McNamara has 11 lessons that he learned from his career. One of the lessons is to empathize with the enemy. In his opinion it is why we never had a nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis, because the ambassador to the Soviet Union had lived with Khrushchev and knew him and what it would take to get him to back off, even at the insistence of our military to strike. By contrast, we couldn't get it in our heads that, even after meeting with Diem where he *told us in so many words* that the Vietnamese would never see us as anything other than colonizers, like the French before us, and that they would fight to the last person to rid themselves of us. We wound up losing 58,000 guys, and they lost 4,300,000 to keep the colonizers out. That is exactly the mistake we made with Iraq. We never saw it from their point of view, that they would look at us as occupiers. We (Rove et al.) saw only our own picture of being greeted by the French. So, now we won the war long ago, a no brainer, like everyone knew we would, quickly and with few casualties, but we bogged ourselves down in an unwinnable peace where no matter what we do, we lose. L.H. The insurgency in Iraq isn't going to succeed A.A. See the above statement about the Vietnamese. L.H. but it does provide some doubt about how well the U.S. is doing in the minds of people who are anti-American or don't precisely trust America. A.A. In other words, it's convincing the Islamists that they're right. L.H. If you listen to the insurgents, they are doing pretty well. If you listen to the Iraqi and American forces, it's only a matter of time before they are wiped out -- or at least reduced to a trickle. A.A. What evidence are you basing this one? In an earlier post you said we could turn the Kurds loose on the insurgents, but (paraphrasing) we're too interested in democracy so we won't. If we turned the Kurds loose (most likely they wouldn't fight, but theoretically), Turkey would get in on the act, and of course Iran would support the Shiites. It would be throwing fuel on the fire. The administration thinks along your lines, with anecdotal evidence and a lot of conviction. L.H. Getting an Iraqi force up to speed has taken some time. The president spoke of some failures in that regard -- of some Iraqi units that ran away, but most of the Iraqi units are learning their trade and the existence of this force will enable the U.S. to back off at some point and let the Iraqis do their own policing of insurgents. A.A. Among other reasons is because we didn't even think about a police force until General Petreus took over this past July, 2004, by which time the insurgency was very well entrenched. Iraqi police are sitting ducks, and they are also infiltrated by the insurgents. Andy Amago Lawrence ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html