On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Donal McEvoy <donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > We are tottering it seems on the large issue of realism/anti-realism in the > theory of knowledge and, in particular, of mathematical knowledge. Indeed. So perhaps it might be worthwhile to look a bit more carefully at what we are talking about. According to a Wiki article that looks pretty good In mathematics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics>, a *natural number * (also called *counting number*) can mean either an element of the set<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set> {1 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_%28number%29>, 2<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_%28number%29> , 3 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_%28number%29>, ...} (the positive<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_number> integers <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer>) or an element of the set { 0 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29>, 1, 2, 3, ...} (the non-negative <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-negative> integers). The former is generally used in number theory<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_theory>, while the latter is preferred in mathematical logic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic> , set theory <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory>, and computer science<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science>. A more formal definition will follow. Natural numbers have two main purposes: they can be used for counting<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting> ("there are 3 apples on the table"), and they can be used for ordering<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_order> ("this is the 3rd largest city in the country"). Properties of the natural numbers related to divisibility<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisibility>, such as the distribution of prime numbers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number>, are studied in number theory <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_theory>. Problems concerning counting, such as Ramsey theory<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramsey_theory>, are studied in combinatorics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorics>. The immediately striking thing about this discussion is that claims for or against the reality of natural numbers prior to human thinking about them must deal with not one but two definitions: (1) natural numbers excluding zero and (2) natural numbers including zero. If we imagine ideas about the nature of numbers emerging from the act of counting {one, two, three....} then definition (1) appears more natural, a better candidate for prior reality. This intuition is reinforced by history, in which zero appears much later than simple counting. The natural numbers had their origins in the words used to count things, beginning with the number one. The first major advance in abstraction was the use of numerals<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeral_system> to represent numbers. This allowed systems to be developed for recording large numbers. For example, theBabylonians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia> developed a powerful place-value <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positional_notation> system based essentially on the numerals for 1 and 10. The ancient Egyptians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Egypt> had a system of numerals with distinct hieroglyphs<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs>for 1, 10, and all the powers of 10 up to one million. A stone carving from Karnak <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnak>, dating from around 1500 BC and now at the Louvre <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louvre> in Paris, depicts 276 as 2 hundreds, 7 tens, and 6 ones; and similarly for the number 4,622. A much later advance in abstraction was the development of the idea of zero<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29> as a number with its own numeral. A zero digit<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_digit> had been used in place-value notation as early as 700 BC by the Babylonians, but, they omitted it when it would have been the last symbol in the number. [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number#cite_note-0> The Olmec<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec> and Maya civilization <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization> used zero as a separate number as early as 1st century BC, apparently developed independently, but this usage did not spread beyond Mesoamerica<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica>. The concept as used in modern times originated with the Indian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> mathematician Brahmagupta <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta> in 628. Nevertheless, medieval computists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus> (calculators of Easter <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter>), beginning with Dionysius Exiguus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_Exiguus> in 525, used zero as a number without using aRoman numeral<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral> to write it. Instead *nullus*, the Latin word for "nothing", was employed. The first systematic study of numbers as abstractions<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction> (that is, as abstract entities <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity>) is usually credited to the Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece> philosophers Pythagoras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras> and Archimedes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes>. However, independent studies also occurred at around the same time in India<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> , China <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, and Mesoamerica<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica> . In the nineteenth century, a set-theoretical<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory> definition <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition> of natural numbers was developed. With this definition, it was convenient to include zero (corresponding to the empty set <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_set>) as a natural number. Including zero in the natural numbers is now the common convention among set theorists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory>, logicians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic> and computer scientists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science>. Other mathematicians, such asnumber theorists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_theory>, have kept the older tradition and take 1 to be the first natural number. This account, from the same Wiki source ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number) brings us back to the reason that two definitions persist. Set theory, with zero defined as the empty set, is far, far and away the theory in terms of which modern mathematics and its applications in fields like computer science (remember "1" and "0") have developed. From this perspective, the number theorists' decision to cling to the earlier definition is a move like that made in many different fields of modern mathematics, i.e., begin with conventional assumptions, eliminate one or more, and see what happens to your mathematics. In this case, the interesting questions of the theory of natural numbers come down to what remains when you have no zero. What, for example, are the consequences of having an identity number (1) for multiplication but no corresponding identity number (0) for addition? Given the existence of 1 and a number n, n*1=n. But without a zero, the corresponding operation n+0=n does not exist. There is no number that, when added to n, equals n itself. And any x=n+m, where n and m are both natural numbers, must be larger than either n or m (x>n, x>m). Thus, the decision to restrict ourselves to the more "natural" definition (1) has results that will seem decidedly unnatural to anyone who learns ordinary arithmetic, which requires the 0 for addition. Which, then, of the two definitions, (1) and (2), is more "real," more W3.3 than the other? That is a deep, deep question. John -- John McCreery The Word Works, Ltd., Yokohama, JAPAN Tel. +81-45-314-9324 http://www.wordworks.jp/