Walter O. wrote: "We don't attribute "knowledge-that" to someone who doesn't have the right kind of evidence or reasons for her belief, or who simply eschews the requirement of having any evidence or reasons for her knowledge-claims, so I'm not clear why we don't demur from attributing beliefs to persons who think they don't need to have reasons or evidence for their beliefs." I don't understand how holding a belief about beliefs would make a difference in any way. Imagine someone offers all sorts of familiar beliefs but then adds that they also believe that there is no requirement to have reasons or evidence for their beliefs. If the other beliefs did all the work that beliefs normally do, then what is changed by adding the belief about beliefs? Do we need to ascertain people's beliefs about beliefs before we consider their beliefs? And this is without even considering the question of whether there is a need for the appropriate beliefs about beliefs about beliefs. It seems to me that beliefs about beliefs are just other beliefs, and have no special powers to either legitimize or de-legitimize other beliefs. I may believe that my beliefs have some special quality, given either by God or Reason or Facts, but that doesn't change my other beliefs in any way. Either they get the job done or they don't. Walter continues: "'Believing-that' seems to me to be a particular kind of language game in which no individual has any kind of privileged authority over determining the truth of whether she actually believes-that." I whole heartedly agree with this. If 'believing-that' is a language game not determined by individuals but rules and use, then arguing that beliefs do or do not require reasons or evidence functions within the 'believing-that' game. One can, of course, try to influence people to adopt a rule that limits the effectiveness of one's opponents, like pushing for the Gretzky rule or insisting that beliefs should be accompanied by reasons or evidence, but this is politics. So, yes, I agree that no individual has any kind of privileged authority over determining the truth of what counts as a belief. What counts as a belief will be determined by the rules of the various kinds of games we engage in, and when we prefer that the rules change, we cannot change them by fiat, but only through politics. Sincerely, Phil ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html