[lit-ideas] Re: Persuasion Redux
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:25:27 EST
VICTOR, NOT SUADED
Donal McEvoy, a native speaker of English, likes to engage in what he calls
'conceptual linguistic botanizing'. Immersed in the best traditions of legal
arguing, he notes that there are concepts to distinguish here, and not just
_verba_. Taking up the ironicism (or fixed irony) of the expression recalled
by J. Wager ("the little persuader": the gun), McEvoy fixes the context to 'p'
being the _analytically_ (or 'just', for the sake of the argument) 'false'
The Baker's Dozen:
(p) 12 = 13
In all honesty, he says that, even at gunpoint, he shall never be
_persuaded_ of (p), nor _convinced_, but to appease (or as he says, _pace_)
Yost and W.
C. O., he _will_.
This is what he writes in his Gricean exegesis.
At the Italian pastry:
CUSTOMER (showing gun) (to Baker)
I paid you a dozen, and you give me 12.
BAKER: ??? [He's from Gotham, 1st Avenue and 9th]
CUSTOMER: Don't you never heard of 'baker's dozen', you ginnypity
fool?!
McEvoy elaborates:
>We *might* say that if, at gunpoint, I am persuaded
>to agree that '12 = 13' [i.e. if the gunner persuades
>me that 12 = 13] I [must say I] remain unconvinced
>that '12 = 13' [i.e. the gunner has _failed_ to convince
>me]. Equally, though [and sadly, as far as McEvoy's
>'idiolect' goes] what I am persuaded of here is not the
>*truth* of '12 = 13' [for such there is not] but that
>_I should agree to it_ [i.e. to 12 = 13].
McEvoy further analyses Dorothy Parker's childhood memory:
Mrs Zieldermann (to Dorothy): And you should remember that always.
DOROTHY: What, mum?
Mrs. Z: To be cautious. It's an old Yddish saying, "You can lead a
horse to ..."
Later (76 years later, nightmare)
DOROTHY (to herself, in notebook):
You can lead a ...
Oh stuff and nonsense
You can lead a whore to culture, but you cannot
make her think!
----
Is it _true_ that you cannot make a horse _drink_? Have you tried with all
horses and water-recipients? Surely I can make a dog _drink_; and a cat too. I
call it 'drawning' the cat.
If the proverb (Yddish) has some meaning to it, it must have been meant to
_apply_ to humans first. Consider 'whores':
Pat(rick) Vanderbilt takes this little whore to the Carnegie almost every
other Friday.
The Astor comments to the Hearnst:
ASTOR: "He may lead the whore to culture [i.e. to opera] but
she...
HEARNS: "cannot make her _THINK_.
It's exactly the same scenario. The same variation on the same theme. I
grant that 'culture' (even a 'culture of one' as Yost notes) is a trick, but
that's neither here nor there.
McEvoy refers to things like 'thirst' (in "make a horse drink") the 'lower
function'. (Cf. 'make a horse pee' and the verbal distinction between 'make a
horse drink' and 'make a horse be _thirsty_).
As he writes, this has already been said (in German) by Buehler (and of
course, Popper):
>reasoned debate requires the argumentative function, whereas
>unreasoned 'persuasion' may be sustained using lower functions.
Now it should be up to Geary to show us if he can make it _poo_.
Anyway it pushed off Wager's brain, and he said it was London. More from the
OED
---- skip passage you impatient types: ----
"little persuader" 1796 Grose's Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue (ed. 3),
Persuaders, spurs. 1844 DICKENS Martin Chuzzlewit xxxiv. 401, I did n't
admire
his carryin' them murderous little persuaders, and being so ready to use 'em.
1871 M. LEGRAND Cambr. Freshman xiv, ‘Don't you go in ‘Don't you gspurs,
you know?’ Mr. Pokyr explained. 1925 E. FRASER & J. GIBBONS Soldier & Sailor
Words 221 Persuader, a nickname for the club, or knob-kerry, carried by
trench raiders. Also, bayonet. 1974 P. CAVE Mama (new ed.) xiv. 113 ‘How the
hell are you gonna persuade the guy to pull off the road?’ asked Ethel... ‘
I've thought of that,’ answered Mama coldly... ‘I'm gonna have to take along a
little persuader.’ 1992 D. PINCKNEY High Cotton i. 10 She called on the
saints to strengthen her paddle, ‘the household persuader’, against sass and
shiftlessness.
-----
Which leads me to:
Victions and Suasions, or Vincing and Suading
I said:
>Sadly, both 'convince' and 'persuade' are Latinates:
and McEvoy thinks this is a 'verbal discussion' on the meaning of verbs:
More.
Apparently, the correct forms for English latinate 'persuade' and 'convince'
are 'suade' and 'vince'. Irrespectively.
---- skip two passages you impatient types --
(a) convince: [ad. L. <NOBR>core to overcome, conquer, convict, demonstrate,
f. con- altogether, wholly + <NOBre to conquer.]
[ad. L. <NOBre.] intr. To win the day, be victorious. 1530 CROMWELL in
Selected Papers by Henry VIII, volume I. p. 367 "The Florentines do still
continue and defend the power of the Pope, and it is supposed that they shall
vince." L. vincibilis, f. <NOBre to overcome: see -IBLE. So obs. F. vincible,
It. vincibile, Sp. vencible, Pg. vencivel. In the 15th cent. version of
Higden (Rolls) IV. 167 vincible occurs as an error for invincible.]
(b) persuade. Latin <NOBRdre < per- PER- + <Ndre to advise, recommend, urge
as desirable (see SUADE). [Partly ad. L. <Ndre, f. root <Nd- (see SUAVE);
partly by aphæresis from PERSUADE. Cf. obs. F. suader.] = PERSUADE in
various senses. Hence suading ppl. a. (in ill-suading). 1531 CRANMER in
Strype
Mem. App. i. (1694) 3 He swadeth that with such goodly eloquence..that he
were lyke to persuade many.
[ad. L. <NOBR>, <NOBR, n. of action f. <Ndre to SUADE. Cf. obs. F. suasion
(14th c.).] The act or fact of exhorting or urging; persuasion.
c1374 CHAUCER Boeth. II. pr. i. (1868) 30 Com nowe furthe we furth th
suasioun of swetnesse Rethoryen.
---- It's still a stretch to use this to compare, as the original poster
meant: between
A: Please! Name the three things in order of priority you as a candidate for
major of Tokyo thinks the addressee of this may find amusing as
deeming
you deem them things to be 'proud of'.
B: Sure. There's the symbol of the monarchy, as per the Imperial
Palace.
Second, I'd mention the highways. Without them, we'd be doomed in
downtown -- but I _need_ suburbia!
Third, the subways. I realise not everybody can still _not_ rely
on public transportation,
and must say the underways are pretty free of germs, are they?
ADDRESSEES CHARMED
And you, Mr. M-S?
B: Well, there's this ditch, and eels and the whores.
ADDRESSEES DISGUSTED.
Things have reached a pretty pass
When someone pretty lower-class
Graceless and vulgar, uninspired
Can be accepted and admired.
M-S: But your despicable class is dead!
Cheers,
JL
What's New, Buenos Aires?
Argentina.
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