[lit-ideas] Re: Persuasion Redux
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:01:08 EST
Thanks to J. McCreery for comments. I enjoyed the reference to the Erector
set. I thought it was an erection set. And who would need instructions for
that? But I see it's what we call in Argentina a "Mekano".
--- Anyway, yes, there's something mystic about Grice and Warnock (and I
love the anecdote
when Warnock has Grice saying,
"How clever language is!"
--- I wasn't really sure what Grice was thinking about. But now in the book
published by Palgrave -- very expensive still hardback -- called "Grice", I
see he was involved with
Warnock in things like 'visa'. They thought that there was NO need in
English to
have a word 'visa' for things seen. It was then I realised he was thinking
of Austin's claim
as an 'empirical' one rather than a credo.
Of course, _I_ could think of uses for 'visum' and 'visa', but their
arguments -- as both
Warnock and Grice lectured weekly at public sessions at Oxford -- are sound
and
they apply to 'native speakers'. Grice later grew political and thought that
to defend
ordinary English was to defend 'ta legomena', which was precisely what
Aristotle
and Socrates felt like doing, ages ago.
I'm not sure when it comes to 'persuasion' and 'conviction' the facts of
English are clear. I'm not sure the facts for Greek, or Latin are clear!
Think of that hateful phrase,
"He is of the homosexual persuasion" ! My God, what a piece of nonsense! I'm
not saying 'homsexual conviction' sounds any better!
So one has to be careful when doing 'linguistic botanising' as Grice called
it. Usages change, and your historical linguist was right.
It's sad that both 'persuade' and 'convince' are Latinates. So if I were to
take this task seriously in English I would restrict to
Old English or at least Old English roots ONLY.
I'll run some commentaries on McCreery's starter of this thread:
"Professional persuaders must always be mindful of the context in which their
words appear. They must never be trapped in the illusion that the words in
themselves say what they want them to say. Here is one of my favorite
examples, from "The Gospel According to Tsuchiya Koichi" in The Copy Bible
(Newest Testament). The following is my still rough translation from the
Japanese."
Well, yes.
-----------
"Talking about Minobe-san (Ryokichi Minobe, socialist Governor of Tokyo
elected in 1967)
may seem a bit old-fashioned."
Why, I call it charming! When Grice died in 1988, his book was published in
1989. And it's basically a reprint of a 1967 lecture. So find it charming that
he keeps quoting examples like,
"Harold Wilson will be Prime Minster or Heath will be"
"Thorpe has no chance".
-- he is discussing 'contingency planning'. It would have been otiose to
update the thing! And 1967 was vintage!
"But something I saw
in the newspaper during his election was interesting, so I'd like to talk
about it here."
Ditto for Grice and that 1967 of Wilson, Heath, Thorpe and I forget who else
had no chance at all (Dalgarno, I think).
"While the election was underway, the newspaper company posed questions to
the candidates. They asked, "Please list three things of which Tokyo can be
proud.""
I liked that. Sounds Yostian. As when he says he knows infinitely more than
me (how can _he_ know) about things worth knowing of New York. The cheek, or
moxie as he would say. I don't need to KNOW the things he feels superior for
knowing. And excuse me Marlene, but I don't really care for crime rates
increase. They are either increasing or decreasing! (Just joking. Loved your
post).
List three things New Yorkers can be proud of. I would just restrict to the
anwers by the OTB lady:
-- passers by like Yost. He told me, "I've already have", when I
politely asked him if "I could ask him a question"
-- expression on the face of passers by like Yost. They look down on
people standing by the OTB. Don't they learn from "Mary Poppins"
and 'twopence a bag'.
-- the academic euphoria of Yost as he revises and goes through the
sale-offers at the Strand! Delightful and really depicting him. Loved him for
that!
"The conservative candidate, who was seen as the likely winner,
replied, "The Imperial Palace, the subways, the expressways."
In contrast, Minobe-san answered, "The moat near Hanzomon, soba noodles with
eel, and the beautiful young women."
I had to look up 'moat'. Ditch. (Old French mot) perhaps you should look for
'embankment' here. It's pretty distracting enough to read your English
seeing that my Japanese is so poor; but don't put on Japanese lips words that
only
YOU know, you professional persuader, what you are talking about! I don't
care what soba is, since the context 'noodles' and my ken on Japanese culture
helps me there. Are you sure he says, 'young women'. Go and say 'girls' if
that's what he _means_. "Hot chicks", if you must. After all, he was
Minobe-San!
"The editors of the society-news pages were reported to have said, "Ah, that
won it for him." As I read this article, I felt myself shiver. What power
did these few words
have that they could determine an election? "These words are the real
thing," I thought to myself."
Especially 'hot chicks'. What's Japanese for that? And the good thing is
that one can IMAGINE the three good things in just one BIG stereotype:
"sharing soba noodles at the moat with the chicks".
"It wasn't, of course, just these words"
You HAVE to quote them in Japanese. "Word" is for Austin, even if you are
convinced or not, a PHATIC act. A Phemic act, a rhetic act. You cannot
_translate_ a slogan. It's like me explaining in Buenos Aires the meaning of
"O. K."
in American English and saying,
"It comes from the election campaign in a a town Antaño MasBuenoGancho"
("Old Kinderhook")". Meaningless unless in the vernacular!
"that determined the outcome of the
election. But the fact of the matter is that Minobe-san did win. Looking
back on why he won, we can discover all sorts of reasons. His looks, for
example; he was tall and had a great smile. Along with those words, there
were also these factors."
Is the implicature that Japanese are short, but they are not! Also how tall
is tall, and how people actually could SEE how tall he was. Ex. Clinton. Is he
tall, was he tall? I know or think Bush Jr. is not _that_ tall. But as they
say in the Hellenes, it's the PROPORTION that matters (I was reading
Vitruvius recently, and it's online about the proportions of the ideal male
body in
his 3.1) A 'great' smile is ambiguous. If you mean 'big', SAY it. Personally,
I like a candidate without a Cheshire grin. And some, think of it, are grins
without cats! But the Japanese I couldn't say.
"Still, I'd like to take another look at his answer. The words themselves are
not at all new. There is nothing remarkable about them. They are perfectly
ordinary words, of the sort that everyone says. "Soba noodles and eel"; they
look like the kind of words you would see once and forget."
Yes, but in the conjunction, p & q & r. There's a memorable logic:
Aristotelian even:
CATEGORY CATEGORY LIBIDO
of of
(essential to 'win' an election)
PLACE SYMBOLIC Gastronomic
"Us" word
the Embankment
at the Strand. chips and fish 'the birds'.
"But wait a moment. While the words are not new, the way in which he used
them was magnificent.
The opposition candidate said, "The Imperial Palace." Minobe said, "The moat
near Hanzomon."** When someone says, "The Imperial Palace," no picture
postcard comes to mind. You can't understand at a glance what the speaker is
talking about.:
Well, I can. Your translatee should not generalise. Something VERY vivid
came to MY mind. Having studied Victoria's obsession for Albert for example,
anything 'Imperial' or 'Palatine' has a tacky look of the Albert Hall about it,
or the Brighton Pavilion. And I could imagine that, adding the Japanese
arcade, that it was _any_ Japanese Imperial Palace in Tokyo _will_ look like.
Also
the conservative candidate was not asked for anything VISUAL. If I were a
candidate for Paris, I would say the "Bibliotheque Nationale", but that's for
the MMSS deposited there in. I care a frig for the facade.
"In contrast, "The moat near Hanzomon" conjures a vivid image. In my mind I
can see the flowers and trees changing with the seasons."
Well, it's good you say, because "Embankment" ALWAYS sounds 'cheap' to me,
unless it's Cardiff. And the way he described this, makes you think you are in
AmsterDAM.
"The colors are
bright in my mind's eye. I see the picture postcard; the difference is
clear."
Be careful there. "Picture pretty" is DEROGATORY for us!
"Even though "The Imperial Palace" and "the moat near Hanzomon" talk about
the same thing, the perspective they bring to the topic is totally
different."
Now I'm confused. So the embankment is BY the palace. You should provide
footnotes for the proper names like HANZOMON. It's pretty frustrating to try to
engage in a reading of Tokyo culture if you keep dropping names. I know the
type! In Buenos Aires, every one who wants to impress or professional persuade
will drop "Recoleta", "Puerto Madero", and "San Telmo", which are meaningless
expressions to the infinite knower of New York (Yost).
"Seeing the moat from over there versus seeing the moat from where we are
standing; the gap [literally "the ditch"] between these two answers is
huge."
Ouch! That was a pun, right?! Indeed "Mind the Gap". I'm frustrated when I
see that for all the imperial English past of culture, the slogan most tourists
bring back home after visiting the Capital of the Empire is "mind the gap".
"When I'm asked what it is to be a copywriter, I always talk about
Minobe-san's words. Our job is to produce words like these, words that make
people say, "Ah, that's a winner.""
Well, yes. And while L. K. Helm did say that he cannot really identify with
the protagonist of "Long Distance Runner, Loneliness of" -- "Surely a desire
to lose is not common" -- there is something to be said about the
professional persuasion of the 'loser' as anti-hero. That's what sells
Americans in
Argentina for example. They don't want to HEAR about Terminator, or Rambo.
They
want to hear the sorrows of an urbanite obsessive like Woody Kramer Allen, or
a paralytic like Dustin Hoffman in "Midnight Cowboy" or a dago ginny like Al
Pacino.
That's what _sells_ and what gives Hollywood Awards too. Look at Barbra
(Ethnic) Streissand's nose. And you are reminded of the book, "The nose of
Cleopatra". Look at the non-classical features of Meryl (Ethnic) Streep, and
you'll
see why she is popular and artsy and a winner outside America -- where
rather Jessica Simpson is the _all-time_ *winner*. Of what???
"Losers will be winners" and vice versa. Reminds me of chic-full Nicole
Kidman. When, after posing for CHANEL she was asked if there's anything in her
glamorous (winning) lifestyle she still looks forward to. She said, and this
endeared her to me for a lifetime:
"Oh yes. I sometimes think of going back to Canberra and finish that
philosophy programme I once enroled in"
-- That's charm with a capital C! Love her.
"There is no greater pleasure than discovering winning words when products or
brands are competing. The role of the copywriter is to produce that joy."
I see that your second footnote indeed reads: "**"The moat" refers to the
moat around the Imperial Palace." But perhaps you should have those in the
body
of the article rather than as footnotes. I for one ignored it, and then I
feel silly now in not having _known_. But then why do you have to use a proper
name when it comes to the moat and not the Imperial Palace. In general, it's
not common for a Palace to be _on a moat_ is it. Cardiff is different. And
perhaps the Tower of London _is_ different, or Casa Rosada in Buenos Aires
_is_
different (in that it originally was _on the water_). But sadly, I'm not
familiar with the topographical chartical details of Tokyo or indeed whether
what type of embankment this is: riverside? seaside? oceanside? Is it used or
just touristy? You make it sound like it's just touristy. Also, what was
touristy in 1967 may not be touristy today, or is it? In Amsterdam, for
example,
the dock or ditch areas are too cheap to be touristy.
"Ditch" is still used in toponymy in England, right? Shoreditch, Dogditch. I
think Ritchie can be of help here, since he's lived near embankments I
believe.
Good job at translating though. So ... the point being:
-- professional persuasion is a zero-sum game. But is it? Surely there' s no
black and white
contrast between winning and losing in propaganda. It's all
TARGET oriented.
A propaganda for Brooks Brothers in NYC for example, is BOUND
to offend
middle or lower class. But it's a winner with the elite.
POLITICAL winning should not be made the EPITOME or paradigm
of ANY form
of winning. Politicians usually have to 'cheapen' their selves
to get a wider
electorate.
-- In Argentina, we enjoy a tv programme dedicated to promotional
campaigns, and for the intelligent or discerning or disciminating consumer,
it's not the populist winning slogan or ad that 'wins' the sympathy of those
that matter. For example, I like polo, and I may like hunting. But why would
a slogan about hunting WIN, say, Judy Evans' sympathy? Quite the contrary.
It could well make her vomit! (No offence meant, Judy).
When it comes to the history of publicity, it's usually the non-mainstream,
usually 'losing' (or as I prefer 'elitist') ads that make the pages of the
books. Not the cheap winners! But then I'm not a copywriter (No offence meant).
Also, out of respet, I'm using your subjectline, Persuasion Redux. But can
you tell me what it means. I don't use 'redux' like that! Personally I would
entitle this post something like "Picture Pretty? Preposterous!"
Cheers,
J. L. Speranza, Esq.
Town:
Calle Arenales 2021, Piso 5, St. 8,
La Recoleta C1124AAE,
Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Tel. 54 11 4824 4253
Fax 54 221 425 9205
Country:
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Calle 58, No. 611,
La Plata B1900 BPY
Provincia de Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Tel. 54 221 425 7817
Fax 54 221 425 9205
http://www.stmichaels.com.ar
jls@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
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