I have had lurkers write me recently wondering why I am wasting my time trying to educate people who are incapable of learning or reasoning. I wouldn't go so far as to say what they do, but that is their perception. I do indeed think you are severely deceived by Leftist propaganda. It is no secret that I believe that. I can also show and have shown how Leftist beliefs deviate from American Liberalism. In fact I am an American Liberal in the tradition of American Liberalism. I believe in Freedom, Free Speech, God, Mother, and Country. I believe it is our patriotic duty to answer the call to arms should our duly elected president call us to that. I believe in America. I think it is the best nation that has ever existed. Liberals from say Truman's time and earlier would say what I said, but not those who call themselves Liberals today who have in fact been hijacked by the Left and aren't Liberal at all. I have heard some claim that Leftist anti-Americanism is an exercise in free speech. Free Speech is an American attribute. Therefore they are supporting America, through their Anti-Americanism, by exercising their Free Speech. This isn't logical, but one must study logic (which most people haven't) in order to know that. As to your claim to know more, or as much about being a Marine from talking to your son-in-law, as I do from being one, don't forget you disagreed with me. You said Marines aren't like what I described them to be because your son-in-law wasn't. Your claim was tantamount to saying you knew more than I did. To begin with unless your son-in-law is enormously gifted in the art of communication and has taken the trouble to enlighten you about all his experiences in the Marine Corps including philosophizing over what it means to be a Marine; which I doubt (I doubt it because communication is difficult and most people aren't very good at it) you are very likely over-estimating your understanding of what it means to your son-in-law to be a Marine. Also, I think you said your son-in-law was in the Air Wing. The grunts don't consider Air Wing Marines real Marines. Of course it isn't true, but that is what many of them say. It is an illustration that the experiences of grunts are vastly different from the experiences of Air-Wing Marines. The retired Marines I encountered while working at McDonnell Douglas all had experience in the Air Wing. My training was grunt training and while my experience in Korea was in an Intelligence Unit and technically under the Air Wing it wasn't working directly with planes. And then after I got back I was a Rifle Instructor which was under the Infantry; so these Air Wing Marines from MacDonnell Douglas thought that in many respects that I seemed more Marine-gung-ho than they did. It works like this; the initial training for all Marines is the same. They are all trained to be infantry-men, i.e., grunts. Every Marine has the basic MOS of "Infantry." But after specialized schooling some go into the Air Wing. These Marines are not subject to the same sort of rigorous regular training grunts have to endure. Also, officers are in another category, a bit removed from what it means to be "typical." The Sergeants run the Marine Corps at the working and fighting level and best exemplify what it means to be a Marine, but everyone who has been through Marine Corps Boot Camp is a Marine in the truest sense of the word. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John McCreery Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:48 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: In the Name of Efficiency [was: Punitive Expeditions, Helm's World, Psychotic Expeditions, Pasifistic Expeditons, Experience War, Who are you calling crazy?, Honor: A History, etc.] On 5/10/06, David Ritchie <ritchierd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On May 9, 2006, at 3:13 PM, Judith Evans wrote: > > > > I don't read the claims quite the way others do. Lawrence says, in > effect, that military people develop sub-cultures that exclude > outsiders and make the insiders feel different from those outsiders. > I'm sure that John McCreery and those of you who know, for example, > Marshall's study of the Pacific theater, will agree with this claim. > That is indeed how military people behave. That is the essential point > of boot camp, to develop small group cohesion, a sense that only your > buddies are truly trustworthy. > Of course, I agree. The social anthropologist in me (the guy who earned the Ph.D.) says, "Elementary." Let me say, too, that I have no problem at all with the claim that none of us ever understands completely the life experience of any other one of us. As the anthropologist Clyde Kluckhohn remarked a half century ago, we are all in some respects like all other human beings, in other respects like some human beings, and in others uniquely ourselves. I simply take it for granted that not having lived a particular life, I will never completely comprehend it; all understanding is partial. Given the vagaries of memory and motive, to claim even that I understand myself would be a radical overstatement. That said, I reject out of hand Lawrence's claim that you have to be a Marine (or have been a member of some other elite military unit) to understand Marines. The logic of the argument is precisely the same as that which says I can never understand what it is to be a woman, a black, a Jew, a Muslim, a homeless ragpicker in India, or Chinese noodle chef who moonlights as a medium for The Dark Lord of the North, Wielder of the Seven-Starred Demon-Destroying Sword. My understanding may be partial but, nonetheless, sufficient for the sake of our current discussions. And precisely because it is partial, it may always be improved; thus the value of conversation with people who know things I don't. The conversations do, however, cease to be of value when, as Judy points out, we find ourselves reduced to saying the same things over and over with neither side budging. That is true even when the conversational tactic that some of us prefer is piling up repeated citations of books and articles that all, at the end of the day, support the same conclusions. Thanks to the Internet and Google, this is a game both sides can play until both are exhausted. I think I understand pretty well how deeply Lawrence is invested in his self-image as a Marine and a man who carries a gun when he goes out to walk his dogs. In tone and manner he is very much like my father and brother, pig-headed in a way that makes real conversation almost impossible. He is also, in his public pronouncements concerning the Muslim world, very much like Caesar, as portrayed in the novel by Allan Massie that I am reading just now, who sees fear as the only effective way to maintain his superiority and does not blanche if maintaining that fear requires the occasional atrocity. Civilized men he can cow with forgiveness (they will always remain in terror of what he might do instead). The barbarian, who is, like himself, too stubborn to be cowed, requires harsher treatment. So, let the slaughter begin. John -- John McCreery The Word Works, Ltd., Yokohama, JAPAN US CITIZEN ABROAD? THROW THE RASCALS OUT! 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