[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

From: "Veronica Caley" <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:46:09 -0500
Andy: To suggest that I would justify suicide bombings or any other kinds of
bombings is someone else's insanity.

V.C. From the discussion I got the impression that you may not send people
to do it but you have some tolerance for it if the reasons are good.  You
are not responsible for people's impressions.  Never the less, I still
stand by my impression.

Andy:A.A. The two are inseparable. And both sides are wrong. (reasons and
actions)

V.C. This is very profound but it leads people in the Middle East nowhere. 
And what, pray tell, did the innocent bystanders do when a suicide bomber
detonates himself?  Just as you properly get upset over the civilian
victims in Iraq.  It is also the case with aerial bombing, but almost no
one protests against that.

A.A. How would you characterize an argument that revolves around their
goal being the targeting of civilians (their goal, mind you), and ours the
targeting only of insurgents. Marlena even said to the effect of that our
boys sacrifice themselves for the Iraqis. Sacrificing his life is
something the Christian God did. Sounds pretty divine to me.

V.C.All things considered, and with the objectives of US government, it's
definitely better to target only insurgents.  The truth is, there is no way
to tell who is who.
Which is the genius of guerrilla warfare and the reason why all this death
is for nothing because it can't be "won."  It's not like the war for US
independence from the British.  Re American soldiers sacrificing themselves
for Iraqis is something I don't accept.  I am in real conflict re troops. 
On the one hand, I hear them say they are doing their jobs, which reminds
of the defenses at Nuremburg, on the other hand I cry for their young lives
taken and mutilated.  The people responsible are the people in Washington.

Andy: The U.S. has no business sticking its face into other people's
business. 
If they want us out, we should leave. If they want us out and we insist on
helping them, that's called trespass. Also known as invasion. 

V.C.Agreed.  You might have added that these "wise" old men were tricked by
Chalabi and others.  That they didn't listen to Colin Powell and
historians.  That these people have no character.  That the UN is only
another tool to use.

A.A. Ah, but who asked the Palestinians if they wanted to give up their
homeland?  

V.C.No one.  Palestine was a colony of Britain.  The establishment of
Israel was done in the UN.

A.A. You've given no reason why Montana won't work except that for some
reason you don't think it would work. NIMBY is I think the slogan for
that. 

V.C. I just don't believe that you can get any of the parties to agree to
it.  For religious reasons, for territorial reasons.  I can't prove it
because I would have to poll all sides and I believe that to be impossible.
If Montana was an option, diplomats would have long ago worked on this.  At
least, it would have been presented to the American public to see how they
might respond to it.

A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.

V.C. Terrible, so are you packing your bags yet so you can turn your home,
etc. to Native Americans?  Or don't you consider that a land grab?  But of
course, that is ok.
This country is full of unhappy Native Americans who are, to this day, the
victims of US government, regarding treaties and regard to lots of money
owed.

A.A. A while ago I posted this link on the origins of Israel. Israel has
no legal right to exist. It was pointed out that even Einstein turned down
the presidency of Israel on this basis when it was offered to him.

V.C. I read this. It just shows the validity of my comment earlier that we
are all either victims or beneficiaries of history.  My second observation
is that the history of the Jews and the Palestinians differ widely, but the
article is substantially true.
I have never read that Irgun was a fascist group.  It was, in my opinion, a
terrorist group in modern parlance, or a freedom fighter. This depends on
the custom of the times.  And there is neither wish or grounds for denying
the suffering of the Palestinians.  Just as a side comment, to understand
why some Jews were so adamant at getting their own state, there is
virtually nowhere on earth where they were not, in one way or another,
severely abused if not killed.  The last, best time and place for Jews was
17th century Poland where they were invited into the country by the king.
In my neighborhood, there used to be public swimming pools.  Before WWII,
there was a sign there that said, "no dogs or Jews allowed."

A.A. It's good that you're outraged. But the point was that when we point
one finger at somebody, we have four fingers pointing back at us. 

V.C. Yes, exactly.  But you didn't respond re leaving the US and giving the
country back to it's original owners.  That's because you don't want to do
that. Neither do I.
So we do accept injustice but it's easier to condemn those who do it on the
other side of the world.  

A.A. The Muslims are jerks too, no doubt about it. But that doesn't give
anybody the right to take their homeland and get righteous about it.

V.C. True.  So why didn't someone go to the aid of countries invaded by
Hitler until it was clear he was a menace to England as well.  Or, Eastern
Europe when over run by Soviets,  Because justice comes at a high price. 
Mirror, mirror the wall, whose land am I, you, they sitting on?

A.A. Forgetting about how they lost their homeland in the first place.
 
V.C. How can we forget?  They are in the news several times a week when one
sends a suicide bomber and the other one retaliates.

A.A. But if the robbery was the loss of your home, I doubt this would
suffice. Especially if you have to sleep in a tent while someone lives in
your house.

V.C.Actually, this happens here now and then, one at a time.  Some kind of
mortgage fraud and identity theft.  And there is no justice for them
either.  One of the problems in the world is that millions of us believe in
absolute justice.  On a practical level, it is not attainable.  The people
who have the ability to do it don't want to.  And then there is still the
issue of people living in glass houses throwing stones.  The Muslims say we
do that and they are right.

A.A. Except that by not seeing the other guy's side, escalation is
guaranteed. The *only* way out is win/win. Win/lose is a formula for
disaster, especially with today's weapons. Check out Iraq if you need
proof.

V.C. If I didn't see the other guy's side I would not be bothering with all
this.  It's because I do see it and I think both sides are heading for
disaster, possibly annihilation.








 

 











 
 

 



> [Original Message]
> From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: lit-ideas <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 11/14/2005 7:36:58 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 11/14/2005 3:08:28 PM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> >
> > Veronica: So, what does all this prove? Nothing, except that we are all
> > beneficiaries or victims of history. 
> >
> > A.A. So why bring it up?
> >
> > V.C. I was responding to your comment re taking homes, etc., etc., which
> > came across to me that you were justifying suicide bombing of civilians
in
> > Israel and in Iraq.  
>
>
> A.A. I'm not responsible for people's perceptions and unbidden
conclusions.
> To suggest that I would justify suicide bombings or any other kinds of
> bombings is someone else's insanity.  It has nothing to do with me. 
>
>
>
> V.C.  And if you want to do that, it's ok, but you can't
> > have it both ways.  
>
>
> A.A.  Say something relevant to respond to.
>
>
>
> My issue was not who is right or wrong, but who are the
> > targets of the suicide bombings.
> >
>
>
> A.A.  The two are inseparable.  And both sides are wrong.
>
>
>
>
> > A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from their
> > point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure evil,
> we
> > approach divine.  You like that?
> >
> > V.C. My take on what you have written is that it's ok if there is a
> > justifiable reason.  
>
>
> A.A. But that's your take, not my statements.  I'm not responsible for
your
> take.
>
>
>
> I have also been following the other thread re Iraq
> > and I don't see that anyone thinks that the suicide bombers are
> > (insurgents) pure evil and US approaches the divine.  
>
>
> A.A.  How would you characterize an argument that revolves around their
> goal being the targeting of civilians (their goal, mind you), and ours the
> targeting only of insurgents.  Marlena even said to the effect of that our
> boys sacrifice themselves for the Iraqis.  Sacrificing his life is
> something the Christian God did.  Sounds pretty divine to me.
>
>
>
> What I get out of it
> > is that there are degrees of evil here, justified on the same basis that
> > you use: namely, a good reason. This being, the US wants to rebuild Iraq
> > and they and the insurgents are willing to destroy civilians if that's
> what
> > it takes to get US troops out, or get the place rebuilt.
>
>
> The U.S. has no business sticking its face into other people's business. 
> If they want us out, we should leave.  If they want us out and we insist
on
> helping them, that's called trespass.  Also known as invasion.  
>
>
> >
> > Andy's solution to the problem: Montana for the Jews.
> >
> > V.C. I'm ok with this.  I don't know if the US government is, the
> residents
> > of Montana are or the Jews.  
>
>
> A.A.  Ah, but who asked the Palestinians if they wanted to give up their
> homeland?
>
>
>
> V.C.  This is totally untenable.  
>
>
> A.A.  Only if it's in our back yard.  It's totally tenable for the
> Palestinians.
>
>
>
> Montana is holy
> > land only to the Native Americans.  
>
>
> A.A. And Palestine was the homeland of the Palestinians.
>
>
>
> Actually, I read somewhere a long time
> > ago that after WWII the Jews were offered a part of Germany.  This is of
> > course totally silly.  Put the remnants of European Jews back in the
lions
> > den.  But right up there with Montana.  
> >
>
> A.A. You've given no reason why Montana won't work except that for some
> reason you don't think it would work.  NIMBY is I think the slogan for
> that.  
>
>
>
> > A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
> >
> > V.C. I think we already discussed this.  And see above re Montana, etc.
> >
>
>
> A.A.  Yes, to recap, it's okay to steal one set of lands but not another,
> the reason being the other set of lands is my backyard so stay out.
>
>
>
> > A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.
> >
> > V.C. Really?  Then why is Israel so afraid of the "demographic time
> bomb?" 
> > I used democracy here in relative terms.  Though the Arabs in Israel
are a
> > minority, they do have representatives in the parliamentary body and
full
> > access to the courts.  By the way, wasn't it the Israeli Supreme Court
> that
> > outlawed torture?  Yes, it did.  Now look at the rest of the Arab
world. 
> I
> > assumed we all subscribe to the idea that US, UK, and other democracies
> and
> > republics are only relatively free.  After all, they all have the power
to
> > imprison and execute one, although no longer the latter in the EU
> > countries.  I guess the test of this is what countries in the world one
> > would want to go to if she had to leave her current country of
residence.
> >
>
>
> A.A. A while ago I posted this link on the origins of Israel.  Israel has
> no legal right to exist.  It was pointed out that even Einstein turned
down
> the presidency of Israel on this basis when it was offered to him.
>
> http://www.motherbird.com/zionism.html
>
>
>
>
> > A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about that?
> >
> > V.C. Absolutely.  So much so that despite physical impairment, I walked
> and
> > walked and talked and talked and had meetings in my home prior to the
last
> > presidential election.
> > Also, I have put my money where my mouth is.  Big time, not nickels and
> > dimes.
> >
>
> A.A. It's good that you're outraged.  But the point was that when we point
> one finger at somebody, we have four fingers pointing back at us.  
>
>
>
> > A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta love
> > 'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.
> >
> >
> > V.C. Agreed.  Credit to Clinton for that one and shame on Europeans for
> not
> > doing it themselves, under UN auspices.  And shame on Muslims everywhere
> > who say that the whole Western world is attacking them because they are
> > Muslims.  It was the Muslims who were rescued in Kosovo and Bosnia.  And
> > they do their own holocaust in Darfur, on each other no less. 
> >
>
>
> A.A.  The Muslims are jerks too, no doubt about it.  But that doesn't give
> anybody the right to take their homeland and get righteous about it.
>
>
>
> > A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English monarchy
> got
> > all those jewels and palaces?
> >
> > V.C. First, it's not always true. (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates.) 
>
>
> A.A.  Historically it's true.    
>
>
> But in any
> > case, this is a diversion.  The issue is that governments and peoples
> > around the world wanted to help Palestinians and their leaders robbed
> them.
>
>
> A.A. Forgetting about how they lost their homeland in the first place.
>
>
>
> > Yes, I know, Haliburton is robbing us too.  See above re working on
> > elections, contributing money, etc., etc.
>
>
> A.A. But if the robbery was the loss of your home, I doubt this would
> suffice.  Especially if you have to sleep in a tent while someone lives in
> your house.
>
>
> >
> > A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
> > convincing one's self of one's supremacy.
> >
> > V.C. I believe I do this.  You are entitled to disagree.  But let me
tell
> > you why I care what happens in the Middle East.  There has been no
weapon
> > ever invented that has not been used, except the hydrogen and the
neutron
> > bombs.  It is my belief that sooner or later, if some kind of
> accommodation
> > is not reached by people in the Middle East, and especially in
> > Palestine/Israel, the Israelis or Arab countries with nuclear weapons
will
> > have their bomb exchanges.  And then suicide bombing is going to look
like
> > child's play.  I don't buy any of this negotiations stuff with Iran.  I
> > expect Iran to have nuclear weapons in the near future.
> >
>
>
> A.A.  Except that by not seeing the other guy's side, escalation is
> guaranteed.  The *only* way out is win/win.  Win/lose is a formula for
> disaster, especially with today's weapons.  Check out Iraq if you need
> proof.
>
>
> Andy Amago
>
>
>
> > Veronica
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:56 PM
> > > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Date: 11/12/2005 11:39:53 AM
> > > > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> > > >
> > > > Andy:Ask yourself how you would feel if somebody threw you
> > > > out of your house and took it for themselves while you had to live
in
> a
> > > > tent for refuges. Personally, I'd be pissed. Maybe even more than
> > pissed.
> > > > Probably a lot more than pissed.
> > > >
> > > > I would be more than pissed, and was: when the Nazis came into my
> former
> > > > country and basically started terrorizing my neighbors, when the
> > Russians
> > > > came to liberate from the Nazis and then proceeded to establish
their
> > own
> > > > dictatorship and terrorized the neighbors and just about everyone
> else.
> > > >
> > > > So, what does all this prove?  Nothing, except that we are all
> > > > beneficiaries or victims of history.  
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. So why bring it up?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Defend away at the intifada but
> > > > consider.  
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from
their
> > > point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure
evil,
> > we
> > > approach divine.  You like that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The intifada has now been to some degree globalized, as I heard
> > > > a Palestinian say a few years ago it ought to be.  If you approve of
> > > > suicide bombing in Israel,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A.  I never said I approved of suicide bombings in Israel or
> anywhere. 
> > > Suicide bombings are anathema.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  you must approve of it in Europe and elsewhere. 
> > > > Attacking civilians is attacking civilians.  Everyone who does it
has
> a
> > > > 'good' reason.  They all just want to pick their reasons.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A.  Well said. 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > What solution would you have come up with after the British promised
> the
> > > > Israelis a homeland? 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A.  I already told you.  Montana.  Nobody lives there except
> militias. 
> > > They'd be a piece of cake compared to the Palestinians.  The few
people
> > who
> > > live in Montana can be sent to Michigan.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  The Arabs did not do to the Jews what the Europeans
> > > > did but there you are.  It happens to be the ancestral homeland to
> both
> > > > peoples.  
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And consider this: the only Arabs to live in a democracy in the
> > > > Middle East are the those that reside in Israel.  
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So evidently they weren't
> > > > all removed.  It seems like some million or so of them decided to
stay
> > > > hoping for a better life which they must believe they have or they
> would
> > > > leave now.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. Indeed, hope springs eternal.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The refugee camps have been preserved and nurtured to use as future
> > > > bargaining chips and warriors by their own leaders.  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about
that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Their leaders have
> > > > squandered enormous amounts of money donated by European
governments,
> > the
> > > > US government and millions of individuals who care about them. 
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta
love
> > > 'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Their leader
> > > > have also made themselves enormously rich at the expense of these
poor
> > > > people.
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English
monarchy
> > got
> > > all those jewels and palaces?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Now then, this has been the history of humanity for as long as we
have
> > > > known about ourselves.  So now, the rest of us in North America,
other
> > > than
> > > > native Americans and native Canadians, ought to either shut up or go
> > back
> > > > where we came from, or where our ancestors came from.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
> > > convincing one's self of one's supremacy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy Amago
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Veronica
> > > > Milford, MI 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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> >
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[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

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