Thanks Robert; I for one need to let all this sink in for a while, reread, think some more, come at it in a different way, find a new angle, a new correlative, who knows. I'm not sure what to say really...but let me suggest this. Take the number 4, for example. A child who learns about numbers learns that seeing 4 marbles, 4 gummi bears, 4 sticks (put close together), signifies something similar. It is the idea of "4"--something present neither in sticks, gummi bears or marbles, yet something exemplified and made present by the instantiantion, in front of the child's eyes, of 4 things arranged close together. Initially the idea of number is the idea of 4 objects, recalled at will. The objects themselves recede from importance and later only the idea remains. But what actually remains? Whatever remains is perhaps what a number is. The only thing that remains residually after all objects disappear is something that we can describe as: "the memory of 4 objects" or better even, "the memory of 4 presences". Finally, "presence" itself, recalled. This recalling of "presence" is indeed a mental state, but it would have been impossible without an original actual presence. And so, numbers, as mental states, do retain a vestigial link to the objective world of objects, and presence, and would be impossible to conceptualize without a memory of the world. The world is necessary for numbers to exist, but only vestigially, in memory. To recall a number is to remember presence, and the number is the memory of presence itself, details forgotten or erased. That, I think, is what a number is--a kind of memory, and so, a kind of abstract link to the world. And so, only a living person could understand what a number is, for it is something "inside". I don't know if this explains anything. I need to stop, and confess further ignorance. This discussion has brought me very close to Husserl's 'Origin of Geometry' and Derrida's preface to it, to which I further defer... Thanks for engaging, Robert-- Alex Trifan/ Boston ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html