[lit-ideas] Re: Notting or not
- From: Mike Geary <gearyservice@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:38:11 -0600
I'm with you, Julie. At the risk of being dismissed (and generally, all
around dissed), I have to say, I don't get it. Why are grown men standing
around arguing whether it's raining or not? Stick your damn head out the
door and see for yourself, jesus! Unless, of course, this is just a game
that I don't know how to play, don't know the rules or how it ever ends.
But it seems to greatly amuse some people, folks I would number among my
friends -- if I knew them. Depending, of course, on the meaning of "know".
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 10:17 AM, <Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> A similar consideration to the points raised by McEvoy and JRB may be
> made:
>
> Phatic's original example involved:
>
> i. Pierre does not believe that it is raining.
> ii. Pierre believes that it is not raining.
>
> If we compare this with Russell ("On Denoting", as criticised by Grice,
> "Presupposition and Conversational Implicature"), we may replace Pierre by
> "The king of France" (as in "The non-existent King of France is not bald"
> --
> example by Grice, adapted from Russell).
>
> iii. The king of France does not believe that it is raining; since there is
> no king of France.
>
> On the other hand, ii, like
>
> iv. The king of France believes that it is not raining,
>
> do entail the existence of the referent of the sentential subject.
>
> I shouldn't be surprised if, among the many names, I expect, of the "King
> of France", was "Pierre". Or not.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Speranza
>
> ----
>
> In a message dated 12/4/2013 8:11:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
> "Would it help to say this question is the same (given "Pierre notes that
> it is raining" is the same in both formulations and may be 'cancelled
> out') as asking whether "Pierre doesn't believe it's raining" is the same
> as
> "Pierre believes that it's not raining"?
> And this is to ask whether "X doesn't believe p" is equivalent to "X
> believes non-p".
> And might it help to add that, while in many cases these expressions may
> be interchangeable, we might draw a subtle distinction viz. when "X
> doesn't
> believe p" that doesn't necessarily mean "X believes non-p" - for it may
> be
> "X doesn't believe p or non-p" i.e. even if X believes "p or non-p" must
> be true, X may not have belief that p is actually true or that non-p is
> actually true. He may believe one of them must be true but have no belief
> as to
> which one is true. In this way "X doesn't believe p" is not equivalent to
> "X believes non-p" and nor does it entail it.
> However, in many cases when "X doesn't believe p" that is because "X
> believes non-p", and this may explain why the terms are often
> interchangeable."
>
> Phatic: "Is there a (relevant) difference between "Pierre notes that it is
> raining and Pierre doesn't believe it's raining" and "Pierre notes that it
> is raining and Pierre believes that it's not raining".
>
>
>
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