Lawrence,
I am not arguing with DNA analysis per se but, rather, with the terms used to
interpret it. Whether your ancestors lived in a place now considered part of
Norway is not the issue. The question is whether calling them “Norwegian”
conveys anything historically meaningful about them.
John
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 15, 2019, at 11:01, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
That’s not what’s happening. From their expanded data base, expanded from
3,000 people who submitted their DNA to 16,000, they would be able to
discover the nature of individuals who lived, according to the genealogy they
provided, for example in Norway, and whose ancestors lived there, according
to what was provided, back, for example before the middle ages. Thus, if
looked at my DNA which from the database of only 3,000 had been declared
Scandinavian, and then looked again at the new information provided by 13,000
more individuals in the database, they could then see that 3% of my
Scandinavian nicely fit within the Swedish parameters and 1% into Norwegian.
Denmark and Finland were ruled out.
The weakness in this system, in my opinion, isn’t in its becoming more
precise as the database increases, it is in relying upon that part of the
database supplied by individuals. When I go to the Helm genealogy, there are
little leaf icons next to most of my ancestors indicating that new
information is available. When I click on a leaf, I see information from
another genealogy which may or may not apply to mine. In many cases it
could, but I don’t have enough information. I could click on it and say yes
and hope that subsequent information will tell me whether the individual is
truly one of my ancestors. Or I could click “no,” but then the leaf hint
will be gone forever. They do have a “maybe” choice, but if I click that
they hound me to make up my mind. I’m sure many people will click “yes”
just to get Ancestry.com off their backs; which means the data provided by
many individuals will be mere guesswork or worse.
The organization called Daughters of the American Revolution has a better
system for tracing genealogy: “Any woman 18 years or older who can prove
lineal, bloodline descent from an ancestor who aided in achieving American
independence is eligible to join the DAR. She must provide documentation for
each statement of birth, marriage and death, as well as of the Revolutionary
War service of her Patriot ancestor.”
Ancestry.com isn’t that thorough. Anyone who joins it and pays $70 per year
for membership can fill out his “official” genealogy any way he or she likes.
The assumption is that people will be conscientious. Maybe they will be,
but there can be conscientious guesses and honest mistakes. The DAR doesn’t
permit that sort of sloppiness.
Lawrence
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of Omar Kusturica
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2019 6:17 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Not completely not Norwegian
Hm yes it seems odd that genes are neatly distributed across the current
national boundaries.
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On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:22 PM Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Torgeir,
Ancestry.com gives as the reason for their current update: "16,000 reference
samples (13,000 more)"
Ancestry.com has expanded their DNA ambitions considerably, but my interest
has not pace.
They have color overlays that include more than Sweden and Norway, for
example, but their database presumably permits them to narrow the results.
Another overlay shows my ancestors migrating to North-eastern United States
and then westward. The timing of these migrations is not presented.
Presumably I should refer back to my individual genealogy for that
information.
I have lost most of my interest in this sort of genealogy, but keep my
Ancestry.com membership updated because one of my daughters has become a
Mormon and hopes to access my data eventually. I saw some humor in my newly
acquired 1% Norwegian.
But I have been interested in in the major migrations and have read several
books which we discussed here at the time.
As to Foucault, I read "Discipline and Punish, The Birth of the prison" and
"Madness and Civilization, a History of Insanity in the Age of Reason." I
started "The Order of Things, an Archaeology of the Human Sciences," but
didn't get very far -- perhaps because I was more interested other periods of
history at the time.
I have had an ongoing interest in Medieval History. The medievalist Norman
Cantor has two reading lists. He declared for the first list, that if you
read every book in it, you could, if medieval history wasn't your specialty,
hold a conversation in the faculty lounge with a non-Medievalist Historian.
The second list was much longer, and if you read every book in it Cantor
would consider you capable of holding a conversation with a medievalist ---
something like that. I read quite a few books on his lists, out of interest
merely. Foucault if I remember correctly is interest in no period earlier
than the Renaissance. Of course, I have had more interest in the later
period over the years; so maybe I'll read "The Order of Things" someday.
I know you said to just read the preface, but I think the preface is what
precipitated my decision not to read further -- perhaps because I was more
into some other period or subject at the time.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of Torgeir Fjeld
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2019 5:01 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Not completely not Norwegian
Dear Lawrence,
Not to split hairs, but Norwegian and Swedish (language, and, we will assume,
DNA composition) is German. The Scadinavian tongues are only possible to
specify as distinct entities approx. 1200 years ago.
Before that they were part of a general German "thing." We assume the same
goes more or less for Great Britain.
How come these codes are divided in accordance with our contemporary national
boundaries (largely)?
Recommended reading: Michel Foucault's Preface to _The Order of Things_
(1966/1994,
https://foucault.info/documents/foucault.orderOfThings.en/)
Mvh. / Yours sincerely,
Torgeir Fjeld
https://torgeirfjeld.com/
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On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 13:46, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Several years ago I was interested in genealogy and when Ancestry.com
offered DNA checks, I sent them mine. Over the years they have issued
updates saying that the more people entered in their DNA database, the
more they can hone each individuals DNA results. Recently, as a
result of a significant honing, they have with considerable more
confidence than in the past reported that I am,
77% Great Britain
12% Germanic Europe
7% Ireland/Scotland/Wales
3% Sweden
1% Norwegian J
Lawrence
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