[lit-ideas] Re: K a techinical pointRe: Re: Valid-Some Thoughts
- From: wokshevs@xxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, palma@xxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:51:19 -0330
No, I wouldn't mind "just explaining" at all. But I must say I am equally as
mildly puzzled as the content and tone of your message conveys.
Could the tone in which a speech act is expressed actually contribute to its
semantic/locutionary content? Is this not a matter of the "music" of the
question? "Would you mind just explaining ..." This speech act should be in a
teacher's guide to the structure and dynamics of questioning. Imagine a teacher
were to say this subsequent to a student's expression of her observations or
criticisms.
Think of the myriad ways in which a student can ask a question. Essential here
is the task of identifying the motive behind the question and the purpose in
asking it. It is only after the teacher has deconstructed the "way" of the
question that a pedagogically effective answer can be designed.)
But I digress, to be sure. I'm not very clear on what it is precisely you are
asking. Could you, perhaps, provide some background to your query which would
help to situate the direction and ensure the relevance of my reply?
Walter O.
MUN
Quoting palma@xxxxxxxx:
> I am midly puzzled. would you mind just explaining (or else provide
> sources) fro your claim that "even Chomsky concurs" (finally etc.)
> to what are you making reference?
> thank you
>
> palma a
>
> On Wed,
> 26 Dec 2007 wokshevs@xxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Turkey and nog may well instill (and even distill) the idea that
> dictionaries
> > are of some philosophical worth, but one would hope that a restful night's
> > sleep would succeed in disabusing one of that idea.
> >
> > Clearly, no discipline or paradigm of disciplinary research owns the
> copyright
> > to the concept of validity. Each sense possesses its own
> disciplinary-specific
> > criteria of "validity." I submit, however, that the logical sense of
> validity
> > can legitimately be said to be foundational, i.e. possess priority over
> > "procedural" senses, in that all other versions of the concept cited by
> John
> > are governed by the specifically logical norms of validity for the
> > intelligibility and cogency of claims made. The converse cannot validly be
> > maintained.
> >
> > Regarding the quotation from W: I'm not clear on the points John McC wishes
> to
> > extract from these remarks and how they are relevant to the claims he
> makes.
> > Rules are public and social. (Even Chomsky now concurs, finally.)
> Typically, we
> > each know when we're (not) abiding by a rule and when others are (are not).
> If
> > this were false, then the issuance of traffic tickets would be seriously
> > imperilled. W. understood that, surely. (What is the specific view that W
> is
> > addressing in this passage?)
> >
> > Walter O.
> > Duck "Orawnge" Heaven
> > St. John's, NL
> >
> >
> > Quoting John McCreery <john.mccreery@xxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> > > A Google search for "define: Valid" yields the following result.
> > > -----
> > >
> > > Definitions of *valid* on the Web:
> > >
> > > - well grounded in logic or truth or having legal force; "a valid
> > > inference"; "a valid argument"; "a valid contract"; "a valid license"
> > > - still legally acceptable; "the license is still valid"
> > >
> > >
> >
>
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dvalid&usg=AFQjCNG8JbP6yppNRxqupqXtkvVmOpzUSw>
> > >
> > > - In logic, the form of an argument is valid precisely if it cannot
> > > lead from true premises to a false conclusion. An argument is said to
> be
> > > valid if, in every model in which all premises are true, the
> conclusion
> > > is
> > > true. ...
> > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid&usg=AFQjCNE4N8cW_r3wrOtnL6DYuOx079Lbrg>
> > >
> > > - Legally binding; authorized.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.titlecorockies.com/dictionary_v.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&q=http://www.titlecorockies.com/dictionary_v.htm&usg=AFQjCNE8kGs0VeC3KBMHhYpqacOw2dWkrg>
> > >
> > > - Time at which the weather data was received. In the case of a
> > > forecast, time at which the forecast applies.
> > > www.intellicast.com/Help/Glossary.aspx
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=4&oi=define&q=http://www.intellicast.com/Help/Glossary.aspx&usg=AFQjCNFiQOkTb_xRqJ3dVgJw4FOKlfP1rw>
> > >
> > > - Of taxonomic names and epithets: Published in accordance with
> > > several articles of the Code of Nomenclature; such names may be
> > > legitimate
> > > or illegitimate. (22)
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.plantpath.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_V.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=5&oi=define&q=http://www.plantpath.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_V.htm&usg=AFQjCNHAHPhk5RT_lWFVKpBk57eF1fJ5fw>
> > >
> > > - Certificate of Insurance valid
> > >
> > >
> >
>
apps01.metrokc.gov/www6/ddes/scripts/perminfo.cfm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=6&oi=define&q=http://apps01.metrokc.gov/www6/ddes/scripts/perminfo.cfm%3Frpt%3D2&usg=AFQjCNFAmZyqNC3hkOZT5SuFikbuU-Xy4w>
> > >
> > > - An XML document that is verified correct against a DTD or schema.
> > > Create a Valid XML Document valid glossary entry
> > >
> > >
> >
>
webdesign.about.com/library/weekly/aa070102a.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=7&oi=define&q=http://webdesign.about.com/library/weekly/aa070102a.htm&usg=AFQjCNFDBjCV2_z4O6aEgF9q55lrYPPOGA>
> > >
> > > - Based on proper procedures, a valid approach will lead to the
> > > correct solution of a problem.
> > > www.numbernut.com/glossary/v.shtml
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=8&oi=define&q=http://www.numbernut.com/glossary/v.shtml&usg=AFQjCNH9HyMzcd4PUzbi_A6Iw13OEBdBkw>
> > >
> > > - Produces or relates to the intended results or goal.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.nmlites.org/standards/language/glossary.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=9&oi=define&q=http://www.nmlites.org/standards/language/glossary.html&usg=AFQjCNE2C2f3Pr2FsYJ3v20egWX4JcU6mQ>
> > >
> > > - A valid proof (or statement) is one in which all the arguments
> > > leading up to it are correct within the logie of the system being
> used.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
ddi.cs.uni-potsdam.de/Lehre/TuringLectures/MathNotions.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=10&oi=define&q=http://ddi.cs.uni-potsdam.de/Lehre/TuringLectures/MathNotions.htm&usg=AFQjCNHWjiIO7orUx2dwslUXjU4ffXy3rw>
> > >
> > > - Being complete, accurate and reasonable 113 .
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.usq.edu.au/planstats/Docs/GlossaryTerms.doc<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=11&oi=define&q=http://www.usq.edu.au/planstats/Docs/GlossaryTerms.doc&usg=AFQjCNE_ig2MsQGrSmCWxrjD13-TXyNCLQ>
> > >
> > > - a condition that is legally sufficient; that will be upheld by the
> > > courts.
> > > www.tdsf.com/foregloss.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=12&oi=define&q=http://www.tdsf.com/foregloss.htm&usg=AFQjCNHdodCyHbo8gtlBIzms_p2AUauWMg>
> > >
> > > - Having legal force. This means that if a property title is valid
> > > then it is effective or binding by law.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.canequity.com/mortgage-resources/<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=13&oi=define&q=http://www.canequity.com/mortgage-resources/%3Fv%2BD&usg=AFQjCNHtaal2MCvsOwdvIyr8Fb9p8xkESA>
> > >
> > > - Term of appraisal applying to arguments. An argument is valid if
> the
> > > truth of the premise(s) really does warrant us in asserting the truth
> of
> > > the
> > > conclusion. ...
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.abdn.ac.uk/philosophy/guide/glossary.shtml<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=14&oi=define&q=http://www.abdn.ac.uk/philosophy/guide/glossary.shtml&usg=AFQjCNF2bAusgvclwAzzKl4qYx-Fwl0Yhg>
> > >
> > > - "valid" means issued in accordance with the applicable law or
> > > validated under section 97.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.canlii.org/ca/sta/b-1.01/sec81.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=15&oi=define&q=http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/b-1.01/sec81.html&usg=AFQjCNFhXLUy5ik2dhyz1sAarbvyMtMLfA>
> > >
> > > - Research is valid if it represents the world as it really is.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.barrycomp.com/bhs/guide/key_terms.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=16&oi=define&q=http://www.barrycomp.com/bhs/guide/key_terms.html&usg=AFQjCNFgY-9dtvNerRjFj7FJjP_jW8emuQ>
> > >
> > > - A binding situation that is authorized and enforceable by law.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
centapoint.com/Support/Glossary_Pages/V_Page.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=17&oi=define&q=http://centapoint.com/Support/Glossary_Pages/V_Page.htm&usg=AFQjCNEq933DTbGYRa25WEQBAcGlAHVLQQ>
> > >
> > > - The Quotation is valid for 30 days only.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.a1-plating.co.uk/index_files/Page707.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=18&oi=define&q=http://www.a1-plating.co.uk/index_files/Page707.htm&usg=AFQjCNHG5X9QW2b6OqUTLN1NHOpZ_iFpvw>
> > >
> > > - Having force or binding force; legally sufficient and authorized by
> > > law.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.realestatemanitoba.com/glossary.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=19&oi=define&q=http://www.realestatemanitoba.com/glossary.htm&usg=AFQjCNGgmaKOHsawbP7gEFbDgzh8qMjaRg>
> > >
> > > - In logic, the term used to indicate that the conclusion follows
> > > deductively and necessarily from the propositions of an argument,
> > > although
> > > the conclusion may not be true. A property of arguments: being such
> that
> > > the
> > > truth of the premises guarantees or necessitates the truth of the
> > > conclusion.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
www.rodsmith.org.uk/philosophy%20glossary/philosophy%20glossaryU-Z.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=20&oi=define&q=http://www.rodsmith.org.uk/philosophy%2520glossary/philosophy%2520glossaryU-Z.htm&usg=AFQjCNFV6NJ44mKuRK_2sQQpEa3CCBP-uA>
> > >
> > > -----------------
> > > As Robert Paul points out logic provides an exceptionally clear and
> definite
> > > description of validity, which appears in both the third and the last of
> the
> > > definitions to which Google points us.
> > >
> > > One can, of course, simply assert that the logical definition of validity
> is
> > > the only one that counts and, going further, regard this definition of
> > > validity as an absolute dividing line between logic and the illogical.
> This
> > > is, for example, the force as I read them of palma's remarks in re
> > > Bourdieu.
> > >
> > > Alternatively, we might begin by observing that the majority of these
> > > definitions evoke the notion that validity is, in essence, a procedural
> > > issue. There exists a procedure P, governed by a set of rules {r1,
> r2....},
> > > such that for a given set of initial conditions {c1, c2....}, there is
> some
> > > outcome that satisfies the rules in question. The use of the procedure
> may
> > > then be described as valid. This model applies equally to logic and to
> the
> > > other legal and scientific usages mentioned in our list.
> > >
> > > So long as we speak hypothetically, we evade, however, the problems that
> > > confront interpretations or explanations in terms of rules in particular
> > > (concrete? empirical?) situations--the problems identified by
> Wittgenstein
> > > in the following passage from _Philosophical Investigations_ cited by
> > > Bourdieu in _The Logic of Practice_:
> > >
> > > "What do I call 'the rule by which he proceeds'??The hypothesis that
> > > satisfactorily describes his use of words, which we observe; or the rule
> > > which he looks up when he uses signs; or the one which he gives us in
> reply
> > > when we ask what his rule is? --But if observation does not enable us to
> see
> > > any clear rule, and the question brings none to light?--For he did
> indeed
> > > give me a definition when I asked him what he understood by 'N', but he
> was
> > > prepared to withdraw and alter it. So how am I to determine the rule
> > > according to which he is playing? He does not know it himself. -- Or, to
> ask
> > > a better question: What meaning is the expression 'the rule by which he
> > > proceeds' supposed to have left to it here?"
> > >
> > > If we can neither infer the rules from our own observations or trust what
> we
> > > are told are the rules, what do we do then?
> > >
> > > John (pleasantly muddled by turkey and nog as Christmas Day moves toward
> > > midnight in Japan)
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > John McCreery
> > > The Word Works, Ltd., Yokohama, JAPAN
> > > Tel. +81-45-314-9324
> > > http://www.wordworks.jp/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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