[lit-ideas] Re: It means nothing, absolutely nothing...

  • From: "Mike Geary" <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:21:05 -0500

>>And yet you said:

>>"Are not rallies the beginnings of oppression?  They are the coming together 
>>of like minds, and that's the beginning of everything political."<<


Ah, I see.  My fault.  What I was intending to say was that though I strongly 
support freedom of speech -- even hate speech, which most (?) European 
countries suppress -- at the same time I recognize that allowing freedom of 
speech allows the spread of racist ideas, fascist ideas, etc.  In other words, 
freedom allows oppressors to freely organize.  I don't ever want to give up 
free speech, but I recognize the danger inherent in it.  But overall my post 
was addressing the question as David Ritchie sees it.

Mike Geary




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julie Krueger 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:29 PM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: It means nothing, absolutely nothing...


  And yet you said:

  "Are not rallies the beginnings of oppression?  They are the coming together 
of like minds, and that's the beginning of everything political."

  It sounds as though you perceive of rebellions against oppression inevitably 
becoming oppression, which would come full circle and trigger rebellion, ad 
infinitum.  What am I missing?


  On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


    JK:
    >>You seem to be saying that all "movements" of like-minded people coming 
together around a common set of ideas or ideals can only lead to oppression on 
the part of those like-minded people. <<

    That is not at all what I meant to say.  The question I meant to pose was 
how does any one ever know that they are right enough to confront the whole 
culture?  To try to stop others from doing what they think should be done?  I 
don't know.  I've only ever said I can't do this (whatever), never that I 
should stop you from doing whatever.   But there surely comes a point where you 
must try to stop others from doing whatever as in Nazi Germany -- Vietnam??  At 
what point?

    Mike Geary
    Memphis

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Julie Krueger 
      To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:43 PM
      Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: It means nothing, absolutely nothing...


       What if a core part of the idea people gather round is one of standing 
against oppression?  Is this the equivalent of vehemently preaching that human 
values are essentially subjective, while having to admit that your own values 
which consider human values subjective are in and of themselves subjective?  Is 
there a way around that?  Is it a given that all human functioning -- whether 
on an individual or societal level -- is subject to the extreme of the value or 
ideal du jour?  Every time this sort of topic is danced around I think of 
Derrida's Tympanim.  

      Some examples lead to something akin to the ridiculous -- did 
emancipation oppress those who wished to own slaves?

      Did the WW II victory oppress those who wished to implement genetic 
cleansing, and who wished to obliterate non-aryans?

      Maybe another way to ask it is this:  At what point does freedom become 
oppression?  Is it inevitable that freed people will become oppressors?

      Is this an ethics issue?  Logic?  Sociological?  Political?  Something 
different?  


      On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

        I've been thinking about David's post, too, wondering where I place 
myself. A non-violent, ultra-liberal, to be sure as far as labeling goes.  But 
where would I draw the line between allowing Nazi rallies and taking up arms 
(legally, hopefully) against them?  Are not rallies the beginnings of 
oppression?  They are the coming together of like minds, and that's the 
beginning of everything political.  So totalitarian, Nazi, fascist ideas, as 
ideas, are not dangerous, only their implementation (within the framework as I 
see it) are to be forbidden.  So, oppression isn't to be stopped at the 
beginning, rather, somewhere down the line, when it looks like there's a real 
chance that the implementation of such ideas, programs, agendas, etc., might 
actually become a reality.  And when do you know that the line has been 
crossed?  How many deaths?  How many times?  The consequences are formidable.  
Just ask William Ayers.  I too was there, not as a Weatherman, but as a fellow 
traveler.  I was much less brave, less headstrong, less daring, but no less 
convinced.  I hated America all through Vietnam.  I thought our country was 
evil on the scale of Nazi Germany.  But what can one do as an individual?  I 
just avoided it all, taught school.  I think now I should have stepped over the 
line, as our Founding Fathers did and enter the unknown.  As Lawrence would say 
of me, I was a coward, and he'd be right.

        Mike Geary
        Memphis

        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ursula Stange" <Ursula@xxxxxxxxxx>
        To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:55 PM
        Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: It means nothing, absolutely nothing... 




          Yes, when you stand on principle, you don't always have a nice clean 
place to stand.
          Ursula

          David Wright wrote:

            "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends 
most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that 
oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the 
beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
               -- H. L. Mencken

            as always and ever,
            d.



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      -- 
      Julie Krueger

      Visit www.VoteForChange.com. Register to vote and help spread the word. 




  -- 
  Julie Krueger

  Visit www.VoteForChange.com. Register to vote and help spread the word.

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