Marlena, I think you are underrating Hirsi Ali who is fighting for all the things Liberals used to fight for. She is advocating nothing that is inconsistent with a traditional Western Liberal Viewpoint. She would say about your Progressive Islam site that Islamic theologians would declare that these progressives have left Islam. No traditional or Islamist Muslim would make such arguments. Article 7 for example is one of the main rights she has been fighting, i.e., women's rights. I suspect she would think Progressive Islam would be a good thing if it could gain some legitimacy. How many Progressives are there in the Middle East? I'll bet not many. I'm tempted to say "not any," because this looks like something cooked up in Europe. And no that is not "the point - that there is NOT one definition of Islamic belief." That's taking the tangential quibble far too far. I argued that the term Islamist has become the technical term for describing the ideology advanced by Sayyid Qutb, Khomeini and a few others. It is against Islamists that we are fighting. Beyond that, I said that while I had heard of such things as "Moderate Islamists," I believed such expressions were oxymorons, or words to that effect. I invited discussion, but only manage to get a few insults. I continue to doubt that there are "Moderate Islamists." This is a doubt, and I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I quoted a source found in a Wikipedia article; a very well-written article entitled "The West Muslim Allies" by Andrew Bostom. It addresses these very issues. He sites Ibn Warraq's "own brilliant essays, and poignant, harrowing testimonials from other ex-Muslim 'apostates," to be found in his Why I am Not a Muslim. He also sites the Dutch Liberal Party member, the Somalia-born Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She goes beyond my doubts and argues that there are no serious distinctions between any form of Islam in any of the areas that impact Western Liberalism. Islam in all its forms is utterly incompatible with Western Liberalism. Hirsi Ali is quite a trouble maker. How can you not like her? Her she is being criticized by the Dutch Prime Minister: http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19 <http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=2 7556&name=Dutch+PM+has+'no+use'+for+Hirsi+Ali's+cartoon+views> &story_id=27556&name=Dutch+PM+has+'no+use'+for+Hirsi+Ali's+cartoon+views Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:26 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Islamism and Islam Hi, Perhaps she needs to go look at the Constitution proposed by the Progressive Islam site? See http://progressivemuslims.org/constitution.htm The link to the Cairo Universal Declaration of Human Rights is gone...but does point one to http://www.faithfreedom.org which reminds me of the sites put together by those who have been horribly hurt by Christianity's fundamentalist sites. (there is incredibly wounding by *any* of those fundamentalist types, I think...) And, isn't that the point--that there is NOT one definition of Islamic belief--that it might be most helpful to find out which school of thought that someone (anyone) who states that he/she is of a particular religious tradition is a part of--or even, perhaps, to ask on an even more definititive basis, where that person's religious belief makes/causes him/her to stand on a particular issue (or, even-if it does-or if it is the cultural or lineage part of the religious tradition which causes that belief--like, perhaps, some of my secular Jewish friends and their feelings about Israel--comes not from their religious feelings or lack of--but from their thinking that Jews have been persecuted so and needed a homeland...and many Christians believe the same thing NOT because they think that only by having Israel will Jesus return--but for the very same *secular* and *pragmatic* sorts of reasons. And, some Muslims no doubt can see/understand that point of view, too--though because of their secular/cultural background, they might be better able to handle that viewpoint if there was not the issue of the Palestinian refugees... ) http://www.free-minds.org/articles/politics/democracy.htm Talks about democracy within the Koran and Islam. And, how it is NOT incompatible--and that website (written by those in Islam for those in Islam, primarily) -- talks ALOT of how the extra teachings added to the Koran have totally caused belief systems to walk away from what is (in their minds) truly what Islam and the Koran teach. The website is very interesting--and reminds me a lot of the same type of discussion and analytical thought going on within Christianity--those who are fully immersed within it, still. (not the show up on Sunday types--but those who are dissecting Scripture and thinking and talking about it for various reasons...and looking at implications, etc.) I really recommend (and echo) that of Omar -- that those who think that there is only ONE Islamic viewpoint by those who really believe within Islam go take a look at those two sites. This is so much like the boxes that anyone who would like to call him/herself a Christian gets placed in--and how it does not matter how hard you try to point out that there IS a difference--all really do get painted with the same brush... Clean the brush and then notice that each box is a different color... Take a look at some of the other writings by those who are writing... Please. Best, Marlena watching Star Wars yet again... In a message dated 2/25/2006 7:51:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes: "Combining lucid intellectual and experience-based understanding with rare valor, uncompromised by politically correct apologetics, Hirsi Ali has made explicit the threat that orthodox Islam (as she stated, "The problem is the Prophet and the Koran" )-not "Islamism"-poses to the Western civilization she has come to cherish, and staunchly defend. She identifies the core Muslim texts-Koran, hadith, sira-their codification into Islamic Law (i.e., Shari'a), and the orthodox interpretation of this sacralized literature by seminal Muslim jurists-noting Ibn <http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4495&search=bostom> Taymiyya's "pure" Islamic exegesis, specifically-as being responsible for the incompatibility between Islamic and Western values. In particular, the principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights <http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm> , versus the Shari'a-based Universal <http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/ohmyrus30816.htm> Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (Cairo, 1990).