[lit-ideas] Re: Is torture wrong by definition?
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 11:12:02 -0400
> [Original Message]
> From: Paul Stone <pas@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 4/6/2006 10:25:46 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Is torture wrong by definition?
>
> At 10:14 AM 4/6/2006, you wrote:
>
>IF a the RIGHT people [whoever they are] were held
> accountable for this particular act of barbarity, you could string them
up
> by their heels and draw and quarter them ON TV and 99% of your country
> would cheer.
>
Or it might end up with 99% of the country suffering PTSD for having seen
it and increase support against capital punishment. When executions for
pick pocketing were public in London, pickpockets would work the crowd.
It's a sign of our increased civilization, however inadequate, that
executions are at least debated as inhuman. They've gone from public
displays to private little rooms, hidden away from cameras and crowds. Not
only that, it would make it like a horror movie on prime time, give it an
unreality. It's the very think we criticize al Jazeera for, that they show
war the way it really is, with the maimed and burned people and children.
Because we started the war, it needs to be clean when it's shown on
television, as an abstraction.
I think what you're talking about is revenge, an outlet for the rage from
losing the WTC. Perpetrators need to be punished, not taken revenge on.
How to punish, I don't know. That could be agreed on. The problem as I
see it why civilization is essentially a mirage is that human beings
function on the crocodile brain, the brain that evolved around (don't quote
me) 150 million years ago. The emotions, the limbic system are what run
humans. The neocortex, the thinking part of the brain, is relatively new
by comparison, probably less than a million years. We need not to pretend
we don't have emotions, which is what we do now, but to train our emotions,
work with them. I know I sound like a broken record, but there would be
few problems in the world if people thought things through instead of
reacting emotionally nearly all the time.
> The reason that most people look at the Iraq invasion as stupid is
because
> it IS/WAS/WILL BE stupid for many years and was the wrong course of
> action... but NO action would be wrong too. You can't let people push you
> around if you want to be a strong civilized nation. And behind the "oh no
> you don't" has to be some military muscle that you WILL use to back up
your
> admonitions.
>
I agree, pacifism doesn't work. But obsessing about something is equally
bad. We obsess about our military. We manufacture nothing but military
equipment. Like Madeline Albright said, what's the point in having a
military if you don't use it? We need to obsess about not having a
military and in its place we need to obsess about keeping ourselves safe.
We've proven our military is worthless in an asymmetrical world. It's
downright counterproductive. It's like we're dealing with mosquitos by
shooting them with cannons. Stockpiling arms just doesn't work. Look at
Waco.
>
> >It's off the subject but it isn't, because civilization, by any
> >definition, is anywhere from difficult
> >to impossible without safety and stability. Paint those pretty pictures
> >and they will be destroyed or hidden until the fighting stops. This is
> >not to be confused with pacifism. That's something else.
>
> How do you propose to create real security without any muscle?
>
Some muscle is good. Unfortunately, we've become so muscle bound that even
our brains are replaced with muscle. Fixing our own back yard and letting
the world *want* democracy is a place to start.
> Paul
>
>
>
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