[lit-ideas] Re: Iraqi problems caused by Iran (1)
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:58:12 -0800
I suppose this is another of LeGault's example. If you had a chance to
think about it you might have seen flaws in your statement, e.g., we fought
the 4th or 5th largest army in the world with an army smaller than theirs.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 4:44 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Iraqi problems caused by Iran (1)
"Good grief, to fight what was something like the 4th or 5th largest army in
the world and stay long enough to get a democratic regime going and the
infrastructure and economy established and have casualties of under 3,000 is
amazing. That there are still people who can look at these facts and see a
failure is also amazing."
They're the 4th or 5th largest army in the world, but our military is 15
times larger than all the militaries of the world combined, a fact
conveniently overlooked in the spinning process.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2/5/2006 3:31:54 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Iraqi problems caused by Iran (1)
I appreciate your thoughtfulness, in the sense of thinking everything
through. I just have a quibble. I dont believe the military strategy in
Iraq was flawed. Not only did we defeat the Iraqi Army with very few
casualties, we chose to keep enemy casualties as low as possible. We used
smart bombs to a very great extent and never targeted civilians. Civilians
were killed but not as many as would have been under a traditional strategy.
Note that just Iranian casualties during the Iran/Iraq war were 300,000.
I probably cant convey the perspective I see Iraq in. I have studied
history, warfare, military strategy, and the Middle East, and the Iraqi war
succeeded beyond anyones wildest expectations. And in the aftermath, none
of the expectations of failure occurred. The Iraqis did not rise up in
support of Saddam. The Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis did not begin an immediate
Civil War. The various religious and political elements did not reject
democracy. The Iraqis did not want us out immediately.
Some have said they didnt expect an insurgency. I dont know why. We
defeated Saddam who had been in power for 30 years. Surely many of his
faithful followers would wish to do us as much harm as possible.
And should it surprise anyone that Al-Quaeda would join the insurgents? We
read that the head of the Iranian Pasdaran argued that unless the Iraqi
Democracy could be quashed, it would most likely spread. Surely Al-Quaeda
and other Islamist organizations have come to the same conclusion.
But is this insurgency, made up of domestic and foreign forces as it is,
succeeding? Recent statistics show that their efforts have slowly been
decreasing. The people who look at these statistics say it is too soon to
celebrate, but they nevertheless find them encouraging.
Good grief, to fight what was something like the 4th or 5th largest army in
the world and stay long enough to get a democratic regime going and the
infrastructure and economy established and have casualties of under 3,000 is
amazing. That there are still people who can look at these facts and see a
failure is also amazing.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:28 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Iraqi problems caused by Iran (1)
In a message dated 2/5/2006 12:10:59 P.M. Central Standard Time,
lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
We have tried it both ways and I much prefer preemption. Irans behavior
calls for preemption in my opinion
Hi,
Then I'd prefer that we do it as 'right' as possible. [ like anyone is
listening to me <g>]
That means to do so carefully and thoughtfully and with as much care for
those littles as possible. .
I do not believe that was done in Iraq.
IF there was no other way out--I agree--sometimes doing the 'wrong' thing
can be the 'right' thing. I used to bang my head against the wall trying to
figure that one out... Still, there are always 'mean' ways to do much
anything and 'as healthy as possible' ways to do the same thing. The latter
does, though, take more creative forethought and must often be carefully
crafted. I simply do not see that in our current administration--and those
that I know who dealt with the initial planning (as well as some of the
latter) did not see that in the preemption of Saddam's Iraq. [I'm still not
convinced that all avenues of diplomacy were exhausted--or that it was the
most appropriate nation to invade based on the rhetoric that was coming out
in regards to either nuclear weaponry or terrorism [though I could
understand it more based on Saddam's growing incl ination to trade oil for
euros instead of dollars], but once that decision was made, the planning and
execution ought to have been done with a bit more foresight and wisdom as
well as information from those who actually had a clue ... )
It might help if I could actually see what the 'end' was that was
desired...and crafted in such a way that the culture/area/peoples were taken
into consideration. To just go into a place with guns a blazin' without
having figured out the end from the beginning seems like the planning will
be haphazard and that the end will be as murky as the one is that we see in
Iraq. (I grew up reading the Sacketts <g> so have that romantic streak in
me, too--but being a librarian <g>, there is the part in me which is a bit
more systematic in situations...line upon line, measure upon measure and all
of that...)
So, what would this author's dream be for Iran? What would it be for Iraq?
Specifically--for sometimes I feel that these folks writing those types of
books [on either side, actually] are always looking for the next 'bad guy'
and do not feel that their lives are productive if there is not a
conflict/other side to yell about...which keeps them from viewing people as
people...and some of that comes from THEM not having a clear vision for the
future...or figuring out how and why ... and what they will do then...
Best,
Marlena in Missouri
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