[lit-ideas] Re: Iraq and news
- From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:31:22 EST
I know all about the Iran thing, and I'm suspicious re. NK, but where do you
get Syria from? I haven't heard the drumbeats...
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Iraq and news
Date: 1/29/05 8:20:30 P.M. Central Standard Time From: _andreas@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:andreas@xxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
> Disagree. It is unfair of Andreas to offer no constructive solutions in
> the context of this discussion.
No, it is not the context of this discussion as to whether I should offer a
constructive
solution.
The issue here is Phil's statement that Iraq has improved and is headed in
the right
direction. I am asking Phil to prove that. He retorts that I should offer a
solution. No, I
don't need to offer a solution so he can change the subject. He needs to
prove his
statement.
Phil says:
> What I have said is that conditions, both material and social/political,
in Iraq are
> improving.
He says things are improving. Okay, Phil, prove that.
He cites several examples:
> On resupplying schools: - $60 million dollar World Bank grant to rebuild
schools
> http://tinyurl.com/3l8gl
That is a grant, yes, but a grant is so far nothing but a promise. Until
schools are built
and the money is spent, it's just a promise. Kids don't get educated by
promises. So, no
proof yet.
> - U.S. soldiers working with the schools in their area of responsibility
> http://www.iraqischools.com/
This is a very suspicious website. It looks too good. It could be another
one of the
military propaganda efforts, especially with a soldier named "Major Softy".
But okay, maybe it's real. The success is... eleven schools? That's it?
> On both schools and hospitals: - truthorfiction.com's evaluation of
various claims
> http://tinyurl.com/5ohpb
Okay, Phil, you get a do-over on this one. Why did you post something that
undermines your
position?
Try this analysis of that email:
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
That original email was written by a soldier in a military communications
unit. In other
words: US military propaganda. The soldier's statements are mostly false or
exaggerations.
> On electricity: - USAid's update on the production of electricity
http://tinyurl.com/6e269
Read the blogs from Iraq: they have electricity only every once in a while.
Phil concludes:
> I found the above in five minutes of searching, which should give some
> indication of how easy it is to find out the positive things happening in
> Iraq.
Well, it only shows is how HARD it is to find any facts about the "positive
things happening
in Iraq" (Phil, those are your words). (You also said "I certainly don't
believe that
everything is 'going just fine in Iraq' nor have I said anything like that.")
> I am not going to spend anymore time backing up my claims unless I
> have some sense that Andreas will live up to his side of the deal.
This is the crux of the entire discussion: you keep saying that "positive
things are
happening in Iraq", yet you have not offered any proof whatsoever for that
claim.
Instead, you try to change the subject and ask me to offer a solution.
Phil: there is no solution. Bush created such a total fiasco that there is
no solution. Ask
the UN to take over? They're not crazy. They won't get into that quagmire.
Split the country
into three provinces with a central federal government? That's an invitation
to civil war.
Simply declare that Freedom Is Standing Tall and pull out? The whole thing
collapses into
civil war. Do the Fallujah? Bomb Iraq into the Stone Age and send in dozens
of death squads
to kill the survivors? Well... no. Stay there five more years? At least
5,000 more dead US
troops, 50,000 wounded, and another $250 billion.
You want a solution? There is no solution.
Can it get worse? Oh, yes. It will get much worse.
Mr. Bush is getting ready to invade Iran and Syria.
Phil, you gave the ball a whack, but again you hit the fence. But this time,
it didn't just
bounce back over your end court; it bounced over the spectator stands and
there it goes,
bouncing down the street. Quick, Phil! Run and get it!
Why is your position so poor? Marlena's posting from the Lancet is utterly
devastating to
anyone who wants to find the positive in Iraq: the US destroyed the
infrastructure and
killed somewhere around 100,000 people (the Lancet points out that the
number could be as
high as 200,000; but 100,000 is the best statistical guess). The US
destroyed the
irrigation, the electricity, the airports, the harbors, the hospitals, and
so on; for lack
of planning (and they had been warned it would happen), the US allowed every
public building
and ministry to be looted; the US dissolved the Iraqi army and created the
conditions for
the widespread revolt against the US that is now killing so many people.
First they
completely shatter a country, and then they claim they can fix it, but so
far, they've not
even restored Iraq to the level it was when they've started. 100,000 people
died. How do
they plan to restore those lives and make good for the millions of family
who lost fathers,
mothers, and children?
But, hey!, they're just Arabs! Who cares about Arabs anyway? What about the
good ol' USA?
What has this done for the USA? It totally wrecked our credibility and
global leadership.
Bush can't travel outside the USA without 900 bodyguards, heck, he can't
even hold his
inauguration without 10,000 police protecting him. 80% of the planet thinks
Bush is
dangerous. How does Bush plan to fix that problem? How are positive things
going to happen
to the US? The problem isn't just Iraq, it's the whole ball of wax.
Phil, forget it. Game over. I won't ask you to prove your statements
anymore, because you
just say stuff that has no basis.
yrs,
andreas
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