[lit-ideas] Re: "I'm Not A Foot-Ball Hero, But ..."
- From: "Julie Krueger" <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:25:52 -0600
I'm admittedly out on a very long limb here, (a grammatical limb at the very
least) --
God's Glory, the Glory _of_ God -- depends to some extent on the case used
in the koine Greek -- is it genitive? Nominative? Ablative? Locative?
How about the distinction among genitives of description, possession,
relation?
Is "glory" an attribute which humans can offer up to, or increase for,
deity(ies)? Or an attribute inherent in deity(ies) recognizable to various
degrees by mortals? An attribute given to the deity/ies, offered to the
deity/ies, received from the deity/ies... Is glory something mortals offer
to deities, or something deities are which informs mortals?
I'd love to hear a bit of exposition on that notion from list-members far
more knowledgeable than I in the ways of linguistics and theology.
In the meantime, here's a little paragraph I have long loved (Hey --
pssst....Geary -- PLEASE tell me you've read the Book of Bebb!! Dunno why
it's taken me this great long while ot think to ask.):
:Glory is to God what style is to an artist. A paintingby Vermeer, a sonnet
by Donne, a Mozart aria -- each is so rich with the style of the one who
made it that to the connoisseur it couldn't have been made by anybody else,
and the effect is staggering. The style of artists brings you as close to
the sound of their voices and the light in their eyes as it is possible to
get this side of actually shaking hands with them.
On Dec 14, 2007 9:58 PM, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> LH:
> >>Heroes were asked to represent their respective sides, as when Brian Cox
> called for Brad Pitt to represent the Achaeans against Nathan Jones; whom he
> cleverly killed with a skill Homer applied to Achilles: speed. <<
>
> You learn something every day on this List. Who'd have ever guessed Brad
> Pitt was Greek. and Nathan Jones -- ? a Turk, I guess.
>
>
> Mike Geary
> Memphis
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> *To:* Lit-Ideas <Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 14, 2007 7:22 PM
> *Subject:* [lit-ideas] Re: "I'm Not A Foot-Ball Hero, But ..."
>
> JL,
>
>
>
> The Spartans were very religious. They remind me of the American Puritans
> in many respects and of some of the doctrines in the *Westminster
> Confession. *The Christian is to do all to the glory of God. The biggest
> sin is *Pride.* That was what caused Satan to fall. We don't claim
> honor or glory for ourselves but give God the credit and thank him that he
> has blessed us with success. The Spartans being like that would of course
> engage in sports in a manner consistent with their religion.
>
>
>
> As to being "representative" as you describe, that seems rather . . .
> well, to illustrate: Since I retired to San Jacinto which is in Riverside
> County, I've been getting the local newspaper, *The Riverside Press
> Enterprise. * The articles give the impression that Riverside would like
> nothing better than to be up there with Los Angeles or Orange Counties. I
> see articles of a sort I never saw when I lived in Orange. Someone in the
> Press Enterprise sport's department must keep track of every sports figure
> that ever lived in this county. Whatever they do is reported because these
> people, in the eyes of someone, reflect upon our county. Which leads me to
> suspect that having a concern about "representative sports figures" is an
> outlying, country, rustic, backwater, backwoods ailment – for the most
> part. I don't watch enough sports to speak with certainty, but I don't
> have the impression that the Orange County Register or the Los Angeles Times
> is worried about sports figures representing their counties. Nor when an
> American baseball team plays in Japan does anyone worry about that team
> "representing the U.S." I don't even have the impression that anyone
> worries about that in the Olympics. Articles are about medal counts not
> representation.
>
>
>
> As to wanting to lose, I'm not familiar with that idea other than in cases
> like the Black Socks Scandal or the matter of whether Sonny Liston threw his
> fight against Mohammad Ali – or Butch being asked to throw the fight in *Pulp
> Fiction. *Wanting to lose is not a normal desire.
>
>
>
> And to relate this a little more to the ancient Greeks, there is no
> conflict between doing all to the glory of God and training for or fighting
> a war. Representation had a place in the Trojan War. Heroes were asked to
> represent their respective sides, as when Brian Cox called for Brad Pitt to
> represent the Achaeans against Nathan Jones; whom he cleverly killed with a
> skill Homer applied to Achilles: speed. And Achilles did ask his mother to
> ask Zeus to cause the Achaeans to lose as a lesson to Agamemnon – but only
> for a time, only until the Trojans got near the Myrmidon's ships.
> Ultimately Achilles wanted the Achaeans to win.
>
>
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx [mailto:Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 14, 2007 2:20 PM
> *Subject:* Re: "I'm Not A Foot-Ball Hero, But ..."
>
>
>
> Thanks to L. K. Helm for the post:
>
>
>
> >I recently read, perhaps in Cartledge, that the "games"
>
> >that the Greeks liked to play were considered to be
>
> >training for war.
>
>
>
> Indeed, but this raises a few topics:
>
>
>
> (*) The religious or non-religious side to it all. I tend to minimize the
> alleged religiosity of Greek games, but you never know with _Atalanta_!
>
>
>
> (**) The issue of 'representativeness'. This is a topic that fascinated
> the Oxford
>
> philosopher H. P. Grice. He was a cricketer to heart, and he was amazed at
>
>
> the fact that a cricket team could _represent_ England. He understood this
>
> to mean that the team was to do "what England could not herself do, viz.
>
> engage in a game of cricket".
>
> We should qualify the issue here -- if we focus on Sparta. But
> surely
>
> the pan-hellenic games (at Olympia) were meant to provide some sort
>
> of 'glory' for the 'village' where the 'winning' athlete was
> competing
>
> for. I believe in the graves of athletes or even statuary memorials
>
> it's almost always _mentioned_ what village the athlete is from.
>
>
>
> (***) The issue of wanting to _lose_. This is magisterially discussed by
>
> Alan Sillitoe -- a delight of a man that I met in Buenos Aires -- in his
>
> "Lonliness of the long-distance runner", where Tom Courtenay (in the film
>
> version) _aims_ at _losing_ just to prove his 'boss' (J. Fox) of the
>
> unfairness of it all.
>
>
>
> I suppose we can apply these three points even in the narrow view of sport
> as 'preparation for war' only.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> JL
>
> BA, Argentina
>
>
>
>
>
>
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