[lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience

  • From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:57:42 +0100

It's not just the extremists in the middle east that are the problem. It's also 
the home grown ones. How do I know there are more extremists. Because they blew 
up trains in London and Madrid and because I've heard interviews with muslims 
in Britain who cite the Iraq war as a major contributing factor in the 
formation of their views. 

And yes, there are moderate muslims all over the world. They're the ones trying 
to explain that the extremists don't represent Islam, they're the ones saying 
how they never knew that their friend was involved. But they're also the same 
ones pointing at Iraq and saying how they understand why this is going on.

Whilst I can believe that there were undisclosed reason why the US went into 
Iraq, I can't believe that if they hadn't been there, the decision wouldn't 
have been made. And if there are reasons such as Saudi cooperation, isn't it 
reasonable that there are reasons such as oil markets. As for Pakistan, one of 
the people recently arrested in the UK decided to stop giving evidence in court 
because the ISI were threatening his family. Work that one through and then 
tell me that Pakistan is cooperating.

Simon


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:56 AM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience


  Assertions are cheap.  They don't cost anything and if there isn't a hint of 
rationale, they mean less.  In one of my previous notes I described how 
difficult it was to get information about whether there were some, many, or no 
moderates in the Middle East, but you have no trouble in asserting that Iraq 
has increased the number of Islamists in the Middle East.  Upon what do you 
base this assertion of yours?



  I see you are assuming the existence of moderates in the Middle East.  Do you 
have any evidence that they exist?  Quote me one moderate writer writing from 
within the Middle East.  If you can, you'll be one up on Omar.



  That the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 is simplistic.  The same 
person who told us we threatened to bomb Pakistan into the stone age (I 
reported this while reading America's Secret War, by George Friedman in January 
2005) reported that going into Iraq was absolutely necessary if we wanted to 
get cooperation from the Saudi's in our pursuit of Al Quaeda members.  At the 
time the Saudis would not cooperate with us because they were more afraid of 
Saddam than they were of us.  Saddam's story was that he had backed down the US 
so everyone in the vicinity needed to forget about the US and pay attention to 
him.  After we went into Iraq we got cooperation from the Saudi's.  At the time 
it was believed (Friedman is the source for this also) that Al Quaeda had two 
suitcase bombs; so cooperation in tracking down Al Quaeda members was not 
considered an option.  That wasn't the only reason we went into Iraq, there 
were many reasons, but it was an important reason not mentioned; just as we 
never mentioned we got the cooperation we wanted from Pakistan by threatening 
to bomb them into the stone age.



  Lawrence




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:50 PM
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience



  Lawrence, my assertion is a simple one. The war in Iraq has caused moderate 
muslims to be attracted to fundamentalist ideology. Because of the war (which, 
it should be noted, had nothing to do with 9/11), there are now more 
fundamentalist muslims than there were before. Because of the war in Iraq, 
people died in Madrid and London. 



  Now, you'll be blaming Qutb for coming up with the ideology, but of course, 
the moderates wouldn't be interested in it without them perceiving western 
wrong-doing. 



  Do you accept that the war in Iraq has created more fundamentlists than there 
were before? 



  Simon









    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Lawrence Helm 

    To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

    Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:13 AM

    Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience



    Simon:



    You forget that this all stated with Judy quibbling over my reference to 
Sayyid Qutb's ideology being the root cause of modern Militant Islam.  What on 
earth did I mean by "root cause," etc., etc.  Well, I explained that.  But, 
said someone who hadn't read Qutb, what about what the West did to the Middle 
East in modern times?  Well, said someone who had read Qutb, Qutb deals with 
that in some detail.  So this quibble seemed to dwindle into whether there was 
something the West had done to the Middle East that Qutb hadn't covered, but 
you, who had not read Qutb persevered in asserting that there was much, much, 
much that Qutb hadn't covered that the west had done to the Middle East that 
had caused the Islamists to behave as they do.



    Yawn



    And then when I introduce something real, something not the vague 
speculation you have hitherto engaged in, something going on right now in 
Germany, you sniff, "sorry, but I'm not playing hypotheticals . . ."  Gosh, 
Simon, what do you think you have been playing?  Not fact because you haven't 
read Qutb and haven't all this time known what you were talking about.





    Lawrence




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward
    Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:57 PM
    To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience



    Sliding out of it again Lawrence? Wouldn't expect anything else, but then I 
suppose I did give you the opportunity. More fool me.



    Sorry, but I'm not playing hypotheticals and also reject you're accusation 
of wishful thinking. Do you really think I'd be pleased to note that the Iraq 
War has served to turn so many moderates into fundamentalists. I can imagine 
how that might please you, but not me I assure you.



    Simon

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