[lit-ideas] How Catholic is the Roman
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:08:41 -0400 (EDT)
Depending on which Roman we are talking about, I presume? ---- My last
post today!
Or; how Roman is the Catholic?
O felix Roma -- O Roma nobilis
The Divine Potestas of the Emperor
In a message dated 4/15/2014 2:52:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx quotes in "The Theodosian Code" from Heather, The
Fall
of the Roman Empire.
Heather writes: "[Dec. 25] 438 [d.C.], a new compendium of recent Roman
Law, the "Codex Theodosianus" was presented to the assembled senators in the
old imperial capital [of Rome]."
Heather goes on: "All senatorial meetings were fully minuted and the
minutes passed on to the emperor ... The Praetorian Prefect of Italy, Glabrio
Faustus, who presided, and in whose palatial home the senators had gathered,
open[s] the meeting by formally introducing the [thing] to the assembly.
... After reminding the [Roman senators] of the original edict that had
established the law commission, [Fausto] present[s] the Code to [the Roman
senators]." "In response, the assembled senators let rip at the tops of their
voices:
[and in a sort of Wagnerian harmony complete for full-male chorus]
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
Augusti Augustorum maximi Augustorum
This reminds me of Grice, "Do not be more informative than is required."
DEUS gave [ye] to us! DEUS save [ye] for us!’ x 27
As Roman Emperors, pious & felicitous, may [ye] rule for many years x 22
For the good of the human race, for the good of the Senate, for the good
of the State, for the good of all
x 24 times
Our hope is in [ye], [ye] are our salvation x 26
May it please our Augustuses to live forever x 22
May [ye] pacify the world and triumph here in person x 24 times
Heather: "The great and good of the Roman world were speaking with one
voice in praise of their imperial rulers in the city that was still its
symbolic capital. Only slightly less obvious . . . is the second message: the
confidence of the senators in the Perfection of the Social Order of which
they and their emperors were symbiotic parts. You can’t have complete Unity
without an equally complete sense of Perfection. . . And, as the opening
acclamations make clear, the source of that Perfection was, straightforwardly,
God, the Christian deity."
---- Well, it's not like they are saying that "Jesus" "gave [ye] for us".
"Deus" is a rather abstract notion, as most Roman philosophers (including
Plotinus) would testify!
Heather: "By 436, the Senate of Rome was a thoroughly [religious] body.
At the top end of Roman society, the adoption of [one specific religion]
thus makes no difference to the age-old contention that the Empire was God’s
vehicle in the world.... The same message was proclaimed at similar
ceremonial moments all the way down the social scale, even within Church
circles.
... Many Christian bishops, as well as secular commentators, were happy to
restate the old claim of Roman imperialism in its new [ultra-religious]
clothing. ... Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea was already [giving a sermon], as
early as the reign of Constantine, that it was no accident [in the good old
Aristotelian sense of the word] that God had been incarnated in Jesus Christ
during the lifetime of Augusto, the first Roman emperor."
He possibly argued, "We'll let pass that small detail that it did NOT
happen in Rome."
Heather: "Despite the earlier history of persecutions, went [Eusebio's
sermon], this showed that Christianity and the Empire were destined for each
other, with God making Rome all-powerful so that, thorough it, all mankind
might eventually be saved."
This reminds me of the Hymn of the Vatican, to a tune by Gounod! -- in ps.
Nice tune! (Italian: "Roma immortale").
Heather: This ideological vision [implicated], of course, that the
emperor, as God’s chosen representative on earth, should wield great religious
authority within Christianity. ... As early as the 310s, within a year of the
declaration of his new Christian allegiance, bishops from North Africa
appealed to Constantine to settle a dispute that was raging among them. ...
This established a pattern for the rest of the century. ... Roman emperors
were not intimately involved in both the settlement of Church disputes and the
much more mundane business of the new religion’s administration. To
settle disputes, emperors called councils."
Helm comments: "This code is shot through with what the Reformers later
would see as heresy."
And I agree! I like a heresy!
"You do not trust in a political leader for salvation. The book of
Ephesians indeed says that Christ “gave some to be apostles, some to be
prophets,
some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’
s people for works of service . . .” I don’t find any precedent in the
New Testament for this sort of devotion to an emperor, but this is part of
the age-old debate between Protestants and Catholics."
It may to to revise similar religious attitudes in pre-Christian Rome. As
I recall, one emperor said that he came from Giove, while his friend, the
governor of a province, merely descended from Mars. And surely there is a
hierarchy there. Note that in Virgil's Aenead, the religious point (even if
pre-Christian) is clearly made by Marte being involved in the ancestry of
Rome's founder. From Wikipedia:
"Rhea Silvia conceives the twins [Romolo e Remo] by the god Mars."
Helm: "Protestants won’t believe it unless they can find it in the Bible,
but Catholics"
or Roman-Catholics if you must. I think the Anglican church uses
'Catholic' without the qualification "Roman-Catholic" with a different,
Aristotelian
meaning, 'kat'holos' (?)
I think the Anglican Credo (The 39 Articles) goes, inter alii, "We believe
in one Church, catholic..." -- This may be High Church or High Anglicanism,
rather than what High Anglicans call Low Anglicanism (closer to the spirit
of the Bible -- and its letter -- rather than Canterbury).
"rely upon tradition as well as Scripture and since their tradition has
grown up in Rome, the investiture of the Pope with great authority seems only
fitting. Theodosus II was of course the Eastern emperor, but Heather
assumes that the same sort of thing was going on in Valentinian III in the
west.
It is called the Theodosian code rather than something more
all-encompassing because only this one example has survived."
God point.
Helm adds: And
"What about “the Holy Roman Empire”?"
Indeed. I suppose the implicature is that Nero's empire was unholy. Indeed
'sacro' vs. 'profano' was the old Roman distinction -- with 'profano'
being 'in front of the sacred place'? "Heathen" must have a different
etymology
and meaning!
Helm: "There is this interesting from Wikipedia: The precise term Holy
Roman Empire was not used until the 13th century, but the doctrine of
translatio imperii ("transfer of rule") was fundamental to the prestige of the
emperor, the notion that he held supreme power inherited from the emperors of
Rome"
and ultimately from God. The references to God feature large in accounts
of the British monarchy and some formulae used in the USA, too, no? This
"God" may be understood as _abstract_.
Helm goes on:
"The office of Holy Roman Emperor was traditionally elective, although
frequently controlled by dynasties. The German prince-electors, the highest
ranking noblemen of the empire, usually elected one of their peers as "King
of the Romans""
Indeed, and Wikipedia Italiana has a full list down to the end of monarchy
in Rome in the 1940s! In ps-1 below I list the kings which counted as
being members of the "HOLY Roman Empire".
Helm: "and he would later be crowned emperor by the Pope; the tradition of
papal coronations was discontinued in the 16th century. The empire never
achieved the extent of political unification formed in France, evolving
instead into a decentralized, limited elective monarchy composed of hundreds
of
sub-units, principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities, and
other domains. The power of the emperor was limited, and while the various
princes, lords, and kings of the empire were vassals and subjects who owed
the emperor their allegiance, they also possessed an extent of privileges
that gave them de facto sovereignty within their territories. Emperor Francis
II dissolved the empire in August 1806 after its defeat by Napoleon at the
Battle of Austerlitz."
The Italian Wikipedia notes that as far as Italy is concerned, the Holy
Roman thing ended in 1556, but there's a note to the effect that the thing had
claims to the Italian territory up to 1648. It's in ps-1.
It all ended democratically when the (majority -- if not GREAT majority)
Italians decided that, under new notice, they can do without a king (and when
the former king went into exile).
Wikipedia reads:
"La storiografia prevalente non ha mai preso in considerazione tali
dichiarazioni e ha dato scarso peso alle rimostranze monarchiche sui
particolari
strettamente formali degli eventi compresi nel periodo fra il 10 e il 18
giugno 1946." -- June 18 1946 taken as the standard date.
At any rate, he died, with 'descendency', if that's the word -- Maria Pia,
Vittorio Emanuele, Maria Gabriella, and Maria Beatrice --, in Ginevra,
March 18 1983)
Cheers,
Speranza
------
ps. 1
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re_d'Italia
Il Regno d'Italia parte del Sacro Romano Impero
(963-1556).
Dal 963 la penisola italiana fu parte del Sacro Romano Impero e gli
imperatori furono anche re d'Italia (con l'eccezione del caso dell'ultimo Re
d'Italia di origine carolingia Arduino d'Ivrea). Nel 1806 l'impero collassò
sotto la pressione militare di Napoleone Bonaparte e fu formalmente disciolto
il 6 agosto.
I) CASA Ottoniana sassone.
Ottone I il Grande, re 936, imperatore 962 -973
Ottone II, imperatore 973 - 983
Ottone III, re 983, imperatore 996 - 1002
Intermezzo dell'italico Arduino d'Ivrea, re 1002-1004
Enrico II, re 1004, imperatore 1014 - 1024
(nel primo decennio contrastato da Re Arduino d'Ivrea)
II) CASA salica-franca
Corrado II, re 1024, imperatore 1027 - 1039
Enrico III, re 1039, imperatore 1046 - 1056
Enrico IV, re 1056, imperatore 1084 - 1106
Enrico V, re 1115, imperatore 1111 - 1125
III) CASA Supplimburgo
Lotario II di Supplimburgo, re 1125, imperatore 1133 - 1137
IV) CASA Staufen o Hohenstaufen
Corrado III, re 1138 - 1152
Federico I Barbarossa, re 1152, imperatore 1155 - 1190
Nota: i titoli di Re dei Romani e di Re di Germania sono equivalenti.
Enrico VI di Svevia Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1169
Re d'Italia, Milano 1186
imperatore, Roma 1191 1186 1197
Ottone IV di Brunswick Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1198
Re d'Italia, 1209
imperatore, Roma 1209 1209 1218
Federico II di Svevia Re dei Romani, Magonza 1212
imperatore, Roma 1220
Re d'Italia (per diritto di successione da Ottone IV, ma mai incoronato
ufficialmente) 1220 1250
V) CASA Lussemburgo
Enrico VII di Lussemburgo Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1308
Re d'Italia, Milano 1311
imperatore, Roma 1312 1311 1313
Ludovico il Bavaro Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1314
Re d'Italia, 1327
Imperatore, Roma 1328 1327 1347
Carlo IV di Lussemburgo Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1347
Re d'Italia, 1355
Imperatore, Roma 1355 1355 1378
Venceslao di Lussemburgo La raffigurazione della pretesa incoronazione
di Venceslao, raffigurata nel Duomo di Monza,
è ritenuta un falso storico. 1378 1419
Sigismondo di Lussemburgo Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1410
Re d'Italia, 1431
imperatore, Roma 1433 1431 1437
VI) Casa Asburgo
Federico III d'Asburgo Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1440
Re d'Italia, 1452
imperatore, Roma 1452 1452 1493
Carlo V d'Asburgo Re dei Romani, Aquisgrana 1519
Re d'Italia, Bologna 1530
imperatore, Bologna 1530 1530 1556
Carlo V fu l'ultimo imperatore a essere incoronato Re d'Italia.
L'impero ha continuato a rivendicare il territorio in Italia fino alla
Pace di Vestfalia del 1648.
ps2.
To a tune by Gounod (He thought the previous hymn just wasn't neither
melodious nor rhythmical enough).
O felix Roma – o Roma nobilis:
Sedes es Petri, qui Romae effudit sanguinem,
Petri cui claves datae sunt regni caelorum.
Pontifex, Tu successor es Petri;
Pontifex, Tu magister es tuos confirmans fratres;
Pontifex, Tu qui Servus servorum Dei,
hominumque piscator, pastor es gregis,
ligans caelum et terram.
Pontifex, Tu Christi es Vicarius super terram,
rupes inter fluctus, Tu es pharus in tenebris;
Tu pacis es vindex, Tu es unitatis custos,
vigil libertatis defensor; in Te potestas.
Tu Pontifex, firma es petra, et super petram
hanc aedificata est Ecclesia Dei.
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