On a different note, if Hart's contribution is so vacuous, etc., (which ain't), let's be reminded of the rich contents of this book, "The Legacy of Hart." 1: John Finnis, On Hart's Ways: Law as Reason and as Fact 2: David Lyons, The Legal Entrenchment of Illegality 3: Sir Neil MacCormick, Jurisprudence after Hart 4: Gerald Postema, The Social Foundations of Sovereignty 5: Jeremy Waldron, Hart and the Rule of Law 6: W.J. Waluchow, Legality, Morality, and the Guidance Function of Law 7: Antony Duff, Responsibility and Liability 8: John Gardner, Hart on Responsibility 9: Judith Jarvis Thomson, Some Reflections on Causation in the Law 10: Richard Wright, The Nightmare and the Noble Dream: Causation and Responsibility 11: Brad Hooker, Justice, Fairness, and Hart 12: Philip Pettit, Liberty and Liberties 13: Cécile Fabre, Rights and Non-existence 14: Hillel Steiner, Are There Still Any Natural Rights? 15: Leif Wenar, The Nature of the Claim 16: Leslie Green, Tolerance and Understanding 17: Susan Mendus, Private Faces in Public Places 18: Alan Ryan, Liberty, Privacy, and Cruelty I take a passage at random: "Legalistic retributivism" -- NOT Hart's thing, -- he's into 'ascriptivism', since Omar K. was speaking of -isms -- "would imply that punishment is sometimes morally legitimate precisely because it is retribution for the violation of a morally illegitimate law." The keyword 'illegitimate law' strikes me as one ripe for conceptual analysis. "Illegal law" does sound contradictory. "Legitimate law" is possibly tautologous in that both "legitimate" and "law" derive from the same Roman root ('lex'). So we sometimes need to add the qualifying 'morally legitimate', to allow the conceptual analyst to pass muster on what otherwise would be a case that could turn into a logical contradiction as 'illegal law' (cfr. 'illegitimate law' SIMPLICITER). The Grice/Hart interface: We are considering: a. Smith was obliged to do it. vs. b. Smith was obligated to do it. McEvoy brings in: c. Smith was obliged to do it. But Smith did not. In fact, his (c) is a lovely ad hominem: d. Smith was obliged to do it i.e. answer the question and not merely rehash stuff that fails to answer it. But Smith did not. and closes his post with: e. Nothing in Speranza's post answers how Hart advances on the unexciting, unexplanatory thesis that the difference between legal and other obligations is that the former are imposed by law and the others are not. to which I add f. Much obliged! Only joking! Now, seriously! In a message dated 3/25/2015 7:43:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: "Why can we not say (c)? If we don't rule this out, then a. may not be factive, and the distinction with b. breaks down. If we rule it out as an impermissible a construction, then we have turned the claim that "(a) is factive" into a merely stipulative and non-substantive claim. Well, that's why I provided some linguistic botany on 'oblige'. Indeed, 'obligate' DERIVES from 'oblige' (as 'implicate' derives from 'imply' -- as in "Smith denied that he was implicated in the crime"). I think the source (McEvoy would say "blame") for this is Grice. Grice had been reading Peirce, which was a good thing ("there's nothing so bad in any book that it does not make it worth reading" -- Prince Charles). Perhaps not so good a thing is that he tortured his tutees with it. Peirce uses 'index' for cases like i. The weathercock points to the north-east. this surely entails that the wind blows from the opposite direction (under normal circumstances, where the weathercock is working properly rather than artificially FIXED in that direction). When Grice decided that all Peirce was talking was 'kryptotechnic', he started to use 'mean' -- Holloway didn't. Grice came up with examples like ii. The spots on my son Timothy did not mean anything to me, but to the doctor -- I'm glad I called him -- they meant measles. This entails for Grice that iii. My son has measles. Hart read that -- Grice, "Meaning" 1948 -- and criticised Holloway for not realising this important distinction between the 'factivity' of 'mean' as in "Those spots mean measles" and the 'non-factivity' of 'mean' as in iii. That ring in the bus meant that the bus was full. which surely does not entail that the bus was full. Years later, after reading Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (NOW A MAJOR FILM WITH EMMA THOMSON), Grice wrote, "Meaning Revisited", where he thinks that the factive/non-factive distinction is not so distinctive. There is something COMMON to 'mean' factive and 'mean' non-factive. In both cases, 'mean' can be analysed conceptually along a common line: x means y, iff y is the consequence of x This includes both cases. Surely we don't want to multiply senses of "mean" beyond necessity (It's not, Grice, says, like 'vice' (carpenter's tool) and 'vice' (a failure in character) where what we have is rather two words. So, Hart is merely applying Grice's distinction. Hart wants to provide a conceptual analysis of 'legal obligation' that does not rely on anything having to do with a coercive order. For that, he uses 'oblige'. Hart found his usage of 'oblige' so FORCEFUL that, for him, a. Smith was obliged to do it -- does entail that Smith did it. In other idiolects, and other analyses, the rejection of this entailment may not hold. Then Hart would say that we are using 'oblige' differently. Hart wants to restrict 'oblige' not just to cases like 'push down the cliff': -- g. Smith was pushed down the cliff. -- h. Nowell obliged Smith to jump down the cliff. Hart refers to Smith's body. If force applied to Smith's body is MEANT, (h) entails (i) -- i. Smith jumped down the cliff. It is a subtle usage that not everybody abides by. But Hart, 'ever the linguistic philosopher' did. It's not like he extracted loads of illumination into the analysis of the legitimacy of the law (but then that's tautologous -- 'a legitimate law'). But his focus was on the idea and concept and conception that 'obliging' involves psychological motivations and reasons and causes, whereas 'obligate' necessitates the appeal to a meta-linguistic 'rule' that deems the referred to obligation as 'legal'. As I say, Hart learned the distinction from Grice as applied to 'mean', and Grice would later revise his thoughts -- his example of 'regret'. In some idolects, the issue of factivity, as it relies on the utterer's intentions, can vary, and it's not rare for Grice to allow that two philosophers (himself and a friend of his, say) have different conceptual analysis of the same item. On top of that, Hart, 'ever the linguistic philosopher', hardly compared with Grice, 'ever the Griceian linguistic philosopher', and Hart tends to vagueness in his prose. "He is obliged to do it" (rather than "He is obligated to do it" "suggests" that the former "implies" "He did it". A logical implication is an entailment, but 'implies' can be read as 'implicates', or as conversational implicature, which would thus be defeated (or defeased) in context, or explicitly. So one has, to use Hart's favourite adjective very 'careful'. It is not coincidental that of ALL philosophers Grice could criticise in his first William James lecture at Harvard in 1967, he chose Hart on 'carefully'. Grice thought, that with all his linguistic and conceptual acumen, Hart was still VERY WRONG about how to intepret 'implication': the conditions Hart saw for the use of 'carefully' (as in "He parked the car carefully") seem to be merely IMPLICATED and not entailed, and thus not part of the necessary and sufficient conditions -- or some of them, since all concepts have 'porositaet' or open texture for Hart -- of the conceptual analysis of the corresponding notion. Cheers, Speranza ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html