JL: >>With the arrival of the Normans, it all ended unhappily.<< It fascinates me that a Ligurian could take such an avid interest in pre-1066 Britannia. This hypercharacteristic post of JL's reminds me of a Doonesbury strip some months of Sundays ago. An American soldier and an Iraqi soldier are traveling down a Baghdad street in a Humvee when the Iraqi shouts, "Stop!" "Why?" the American asks. "That man there, that's Hassan al Jaffri. I must kill him!" "What? Why?" the American asks. "Because some members of his family killed some of my family." "My god, when did that happen?" "In 1385." But don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. Just fascinated. Mike Geary Memphis and though I can trace my English ancestry back to 1590 with the birth of John Greene who emigrated on the James in 1635 and died in 1659 in Rhode Island, I can't hold a candle to the Argentine Ligurian when it comes to Anglophilia -- which has a decidedly perverted sound to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Graikos (Arist., Meteor. I xiv): with bread, butter, and green cheese "Graikoi was the prehistoric name of the Hellenes" Arist. Meteor. I, xiv (Loeb Classical Library) Tha oran hi on Crecas. King Alfred, Oros. v xii 4 (893) OED comments: "The Old English Crécas plural, corresponds to Old High German Chrêch, Chriech (MHG. Kriech), Gothic Krêks, ultimately from Krêkoz, an early Teutonic adoption of Latin Græcus, pl. Græc, the name applied by the Romans to the people called by themselves . The substitution of k for g is commonly accounted for by the supposition that the Teutonic initial g, when the word was adopted, still retained its original pronunciation (), so that k would be the Teutonic sound nearest to the Latin g. In all the Teutonic languages the word was ultimately refashioned after Latin, with change of k into g; hence OE. Grécas pl. beside Crécas, Middle Dutch Grieke (Du. Griek), mod.Ger. Grieche, ON. Grikkir pl. In branch II the noun is an absolute use of GREEK a. "Latin Græc is from the Greek , said by Aristotle (Meteorologica Book I. xiv) to have been the prehistoric name of the Hellenes in their original seats in Epirus." "The Roman word is apparently an adjectival derivative of Graius, which is used in Latin as a poetical synonym of Græcus. Recent scholars think the name may have been brought to Italy by colonists from Euba, where there is some evidence of its having existed: see Busolt Gr. Gesch. I.2 198.]." First quote in English: King Alfred, above. When I was referring to "Hellenic" being rude, I meant to say that if Greek was mentioned at all in the curriculum, say Eton, Rugby, or Oxford -- I don't think it officially would be labelled 'Hellenic'. What the people themselves called themselves is immaterial. The current script of "Mary Poppins" -- by Julian Fellows -- who should know better -- has Mr. Banks's client wanting to apply a evil scheme in "Latin America". Yet we won't hear a Buenos Aires person labelled himself as a "Latin American" _ever_. It's usually _Bolivians_ who are Latin-Americans. The Greeks were mighty confused as to their tribal organisation, and the delight of it all is that such was the case. No need for an over-generic or hypergeneric term! Ditto for Latins, and Romans. It's very insulting to call my Italian side of the family "Roman" or even "Italian". They are stubbornly proud (for some reason which has to do with the history of isolation for years and a love for the old sod that they never even allowed the 'roaming Romans' to cross the Riviera) referred to as "Ligurii" -- and the province is Liguria. Italians would be 'southerner things', and Romans just 'towns folk'. L. K. Helm mentions the English and the Frissons. That was part of my research. I even visited Leeuwaarden (in Friesland) to have the records straight. It's only PROCOPIUS (I got the Loeb yesterday -- but the text is available online) who mentions the FRISSONES -- which may be the Frisians. He also mentions the angilloi, which may be the Angles (he makes them as living in Brittia). Tacitus who wrote earlier, mentions the Angulus of the Angli as still being continental and being that piece of triangular land on the Baltic sea. Tacitus goes on to explain that there was a confederacy of the Angles and the Frisians which he called Ingvaeonic, or Ingaevones. The root, "Ing-" is said to be represented in the word "England", but I prefer the "Angulus" story. When Henry Sweet -- the original Mister Higgins -- classified English he called it "Anglo-Frisian" in its continental home. And the fact is preserved by a rhyme by Hazlitt, Bread, butter, and green cheese, is very good english and very good friese. -------- When the Angles arrived in Britannia, their companions, according to Bede, were the Saxons and the Jutes. The Jutes are easy to trace: Isle of Wight and Kent. South of the Thames, Saxons -- North of the Thames Angles. Angles had basically three kingdoms -- South of Humber -- East Anglia (suffolk and norfolk), and Mercians (The Marches). North of the Humber (Northumbria) divided into DEIRA (Yorkshire) and Bernicia. Britons is always used with reference to the pre-germanic tribes. With the arrival of the Normans, it all ended unhappily. It should be noted that King Alfred, who used Angelkynne a lot, was himself a West Saxon (Wessex). Cheers, JL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.