[lit-ideas] Re: France, a Rogue State in 1801-05

  • From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 01:54:00 +0100

Lawrence, if you're relying on Kagan for your view of European history during 
the early nineteenth century, you place yourself at a distinct disadvantage. 
I'm not going to trade references on this, merely assure you that Kagan is on a 
revisionist path. 

Prior to 1805, the 'world order' was a matter of competing economic interests, 
essentially colonialist in nature, disturbed by the French Revolution and 
subsequently Napoleon's own empire building. Only after Trafalgar did Britain 
have complete naval domination and only after Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo 
could she be termed a Hegemon. Between 1805 and 1815, Britain's naval 
domination enabled her to establish market precedence outside Europe, which, 
for the most part, was blockaded against her by Napoleon. In some respects, 
it's fair to say that Napoleon, rather than defeating Britain, actually created 
the conditions for her to be that Hegemon after 1815.

It's revealing that the page Judy linked to (a discussion by Kagan on this new 
work), makes no mention whatsoever of Trafalgar (unless the word was 
indiscernible, in which case it was Kristol rather than Kagan). After all it 
was only after Napoleon learnt of the French and Spanish defeat at Trafalgar 
that he planned and implemented his Austerlitz campaign. 

The more I look at this, the more I suspect Kagan and Kristol are seeking to 
create a revisionist view of history based on their Neocon slant. You've got a 
lot of convincing to do Lawrence. 

For an alternative view of 'grand history' try:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Great_Powers

Simon



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:46 AM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: France, a Rogue State in 1801-05


  Kagan has taught at West Point, is considered a distinguished military 
historian but, no doubt he doesn't measure up to your credentials which are 
what?  Of course one doesn't needed credentials to present evidence, the 
assumptions from which you might be able to draw a conclusion (missing in the 
note below). He just completed the first volume on Napoleon.  I thought there 
were to be three total volumes but Amazon.com says four.  I heard him on C-Span 
and he had some interesting ideas.  



  I don't know what the heck is wrong with you guys.  A distinguished historian 
introduces some new ides and you and Andreas do a little clown act.   If you 
don't have anything to add, any reference or example backing up your claim that 
you know more than Kagan, then what are you doing?  Do either of you know what 
a World Order is?  I know Andreas doesn't from what he said, and I don't think 
you do either because you focused on "Hegemon" and not the World order of which 
Britain was the protector and against which Napoleon reacted.





  Lawrence














------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
  Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:41 PM
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: France, a Rogue State in 1801-05



  Britain wasn't the Hegemon until after 1805, once Nelson had defeated the 
French and Spanish Navies at Trafalgar. Before then, though dominating naval 
trade, she was unable to project her power onto the Continent. 



  Note that Trafalgar enabled Britian to send an army onto the Iberian 
Peninsular in 1808, the same army that crossed the Pyranees in 1814, even as 
Britain was fighting the War of 1812 across the Atlantic. 



  After 1805, based on its naval supremacy, Britain might be said to have been 
the Hegemon. Before 1805, she was merely competing for the position, albeit 
with a distinct financial advantage.



  It sounds to me as though Kagan is erroneously projecting a world view back 
in time supported by a deficient knowledge of European history.



  Simon

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