[lit-ideas] Re: FW: Re: ] Hillary Clinton Speaks Up for israel at U.N.Rally
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
--- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> The Christian Crusades were in response to Islamic
> expansion.
*Hardly. The said Muslim expansion took place several
centuries earlier. They were, rather, a response to
the European conditions of the time including the rise
in numbers of dissatisfied nobles who could not
inherit, the power dynamics between the European kings
and the Pope etc.
The Byzantine
> Empire called for help against the Muslims for a
> couple of hundred years
> before the Western Church responded with a call for
> a Crusade.
*How did the Roman Empire, or the Byzantine Empire
which was one of its offshoots, have more moral right
to rule over lands like Palestine, Syria, Egypt, than
did the Arabs ?
> The Jews were expelled several times, by the
> Babylonians, Assyrians, and
> Romans, but they always returned.
*Yeah, and by the Byzantines too. Under the Byzantine
rule, the Jews were prohibited from settling in
Jerusalem.
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_43_-_The_Jews_of_Babylon.asp
They were there
> when the Muslims muscled
> in.
That is roughly right. "Under early Arab rule, a
Jewish community was reestablished in Jerusalem and
flourished in the 8th century."
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm
Of course, as we know, when the Crusaders conquered
Jerusalem, they celebrated by massacring both Arabs
and Jews.
> I don't have anything against "muscle," only when
> some accuses the Jews of
> being unfair, and muscling into a land belonging to
> poor defenseless
> Muslims.
*As I said before, the Muslims did not expel Jews when
they conquered the land. The Jews did expel the
Muslims.
> I see you have a Ward Churchill problem with the
> European movement into
> North America -- muscling into those Indian tribes
> which had spent their
> lives muscling each other from place to place.
*As usually, you grossly simplify things. The Indian
tribes did have limited wars over land, but this is
not in any way equivalent to a mass extermination
program that was undertaken by the European settlers.
O.K.
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