D - As you point out, and as Ramsey I think also did, this last claim created difficulties for W's overall theory. So that in 'Some Remarks on Logical Form' W abandoned the claim that elem.props. are independent. The question is how this bears on the sayability of elem.props... *[4.22] Why does this support the claim that such propositions are 'sayable'? Because in 6.3751, we have 'For example, the simultaneous presence of two colours at the same [point] in the visual field is impossible, in fact logically impossible. ...(It is clear that the logical product of two elementary propositions can be neither a tautology nor a contradiction. The statement that a point in the visual field has two different colours at the same time is a contradiction.)' ______________________ If it is logically impossible that two colours co-exist at the same space-time point, then it is logically impossible that 'Here is blue' and 'Here is red' [where 'Here' posits such co-existence] are both true:- hence the "product" of these two propositions is a contradiction. But if the product of two elementary propositions cannot be a contradiction, then 'Here is blue' and 'Here is red' - since as a "product" they contradict -cannot be elementary propositions. So I am unsure how you think the logic of 6.3751 et al supports the view that 'Here is blue'/'Here is red'/etc. are each an elem. prop. - rather than the view that they cannot be. That said, the problem remains of understanding how blue/red/etc can contradict (rule each other out of the same 'logical space') without the EPs into which these terms might be further analysed contradicting each other. But this is not to say that 6.3751 supports the view that 'Here is blue' or any other such proposition is both a. elementary b. sayable. Rather the logic of the text is to the effect that such a [sayable] proposition cannot be elementary. Donal Trying to avoid 'Good Will Hunting' ___________________________________________________________ WIN FREE WORLDWIDE FLIGHTS - nominate a cafe in the Yahoo! Mail Internet Cafe Awards www.yahoo.co.uk/internetcafes ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html