JK: >>And if the girl/woman doesn't have a choice? Choice as to what? Sexual activity? Then it's rape or at minimum sexual assualt. If it's with a girl, then it's statutory rape, whether she chooses to or not. Why do you ask such a question? Is there something in my post that suggests I approve of men "having their way" with women? I don't understand. Mike Geary Memphis ----- Original Message ----- From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Don't Stand So Close to Me And if the girl/woman doesn't have a choice? Julie Krueger ========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Don't Stand So Close to Me Date: 1/28/2007 4:29:06 P.M. Central Standard Time From: atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent on: A.A: >> Sexual pleasure with an older man as opposed to someone her own age? You have to be kidding.<< It seems to me that where and with whom a woman seeks her pleasure is her business, not yours. If she prefers older men or younger men or mean men or black men or red men or even white men, or rich men or cowboys or gay cowboys, then that's her business. That older men can use their position and influence to seduce a younger woman can be dastardly caddish behavior, I'll grant you -- but not illegal or necessarily immoral assuming the woman is of legal age. Women, like men, can behave in strange ways. Ask any rock 'n roll star. Many women are drawn like moths to the bright lights of success. Why else would men seek out success? For men, at least, it's all about sex, Andy. I hate to tell you that, but it's time you knew. Everything a man does, he does for pussy -- well, about ten per cent do it for dick -- Freudian? No. More Heffnerian. I've yet to find any male behavior that can't ultimately be reduced to the desire to fuck. And I stand four square against Reductionism! It's an extremely complex universe, after all -- except when it comes to male motivations. And I personally find nothing wrong with that. I find it amusing to realize that I'm writing this right now in hopes I'll get laid down the road. Omar in his post informed me that the student he was writing about was not, like my student, 15 years old, but a college student and that she was not inexperienced in things sexual, to which you responded: " Not inexperienced is sometimes known as sexual abuse of children." My question is what the hell does that have to do with anything? If you want to preach against sexual abuse of children, then start up an new thread. I'll support you in that. I can name priests' names. : ) Who I wonder are you accusing of sexual abuse of children -- Omar or me or both? I never touched my student (and today we're good, close friends, she teaches theater in Montreal) and Omar's student certainly wasn't a child. So what was your point exactly? I understand that you're opposed to child sexual abuse. So are we all. So are we all. >> That's a clear power differential that speaks for itself I think, but, of course, not to you. It must be nice to live in a world where things just happen. Not happen for a reason, but just happen.<< I have no idea where this is coming from or how you could draw that conclusion from anything I've ever written. >> By psychohistorians, but you don't believe in the unconscious, so why are you bothering me? << Which psychohistorians? Names please. What do you mean I don't believe in the unconscious? I've told you more than once that I believe first and foremost in the unconscious, or subconscious, which, I assume, is what you mean. We live our subconsciously, consciousness is what we amuse ourselves with. A.A. Someone who does no thinking would be envious, no surprise there. A hit! A very palpable hit! Mike Geary Memphis ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Amago To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Don't Stand So Close to Me -----Original Message----- From: Mike Geary Sent: Jan 28, 2007 12:15 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Don't Stand So Close to Me As to Andy's comments: > Not inexperienced is sometimes known as sexual abuse of children, It's also sometimes (and far more commonly) known as "not inexperienced". I dare say most college age women have some experience with sexual pleasure. A sin, I know. And get this, not all children are sexually abused. I know it will come as a shock to Andy, who has never raised a child, but in fact most children are not sexually abused. A.A. Sexual pleasure with an older man as opposed to someone her own age? You have to be kidding. That's a clear power differential that speaks for itself I think, but, of course, not to you. It must be nice to live in a world where things just happen. Not happen for a reason, but just happen. > Psychohistorically it's suggested that countries have "maturity levels". Suggested by whom? Do you seriously believe that China lacks maturity? In any case, what do you mean by "China"? China has 1.3 billion people in it. Women were treated literally (literally) like nonentities before Mao made everyone equal, which worked about as well as emancipating the slaves here. There's still much hatred against women in China. So, yes, the maturity level there is not high generally speaking, or you can explain to me why women need to be hated. Iris Chang talked about the things she saw done to women in the provinces that can't be repeated on this list. Women in China's cities are divorcing men like crazy and who can blame them? Macho cultures are generally immature. Men who beat women are immature. Women who hit men are immature. Boys are taught to be men by being beaten (the Boy Named Sue), so they will beat those smaller than themselves. That's called macho. Machismo is a mask. Mexico is a macho culture, so yes, generally, they're less mature than a nonmacho culture. Likewise Islamic cultures where women are obsessed over, "protected", which is to say, kept stuck to the soles of men's shoes, are very immature. Immaturity is accompanied by a lot of anger; what was the reaction to the cartoons? Western cultures are somewhat more mature to the extent that there is more equality among sexes, but Western cultures did the schoolyard counterpart to the Islam rage by goading it. We here in the U.S. took a huge step backwards with the invasion of Iraq, but generally we treat children better, and women are now mostly equal, which means we are more mature as a culture, yes. As we grow up we're taught that we don't fight to solve problems (even as we're beaten in the teaching), but how are we today solving problems? By declaring war. So, the world as a very, very long way to go in the maturation process, but at least we've made some progress here by recognizing child abuse as bad instead of the normal it's been for most of history and still is in much if not most of the world. > Clearly those who need disparities and power differentials in marriages are not at the high end of maturity. Clearly? I envy Andy the clarity of his thinking. A.A. Someone who does no thinking would be envious, no surprise there. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html