[lit-ideas] Re: Definition(s) of Virtue
- From: "William Ball" <ballnw@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:21:04 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judith Evans
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 6:34 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Definition(s) of Virtue
Robert, I thought arete was the fulfilment of one's
capabilities (I take that from Googling it yesterday,
also from discussions some while ago).
> For Aristotle, virtue was a mean between two
> extremes, the extremes
> being defects of character: courage is a mean
> between rashness and
> timidity, e.g. (Not everything admits of a mean:
Yes -- I'm finding it difficult to describe the
extremes between which arete lies unless it is,
simply, a mean between any (and all) extremes.
Puzzled in Cardiff
Judy
--- Robert Paul <robert.paul@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I'm surprised that in Marlena's list of opinions
> about virtue, there's
> no reference to Aristotle, that hero of virtue,
> whose investigation of
> areté is a landmark of Western philosophy?no
> kidding.
>
> I suspect it was the Greek notion of areté that Bill
> Ball was asking
> about when he asked whether virtue (whatever it was)
> could be taught,
> and that notion doesn't fit easily with some of the
> things said about
> virtue so far.
>
> For Aristotle, virtue was a mean between two
> extremes, the extremes
> being defects of character: courage is a mean
> between rashness and
> timidity, e.g. (Not everything admits of a mean:
> there's no such thing
> as committing adultery in the right way with the
> right person at the
> right time?a bit of Aristotelian levity.) The
> virtues are 'excellences'
> of human character, but the list of Aristotelian
> virtues may not exactly
> match a list made up by people like us who are not
> male Athenian
> aristocrats. It would be strange though if timidity
> and rashness were
> considered virtues, and the kinds of behaviour that
> 'virtue' (and
> obviously ''areté') ranges over don't form an
> entirely unruly class.
>
> 'It is neither by nature nor contrary to it that we
> are virtuous;
> rather, we are adapted by nature to receive the
> virtues, and we become
> virtuous by habit.' Habituation is helped along by
> correction and
> 'training,' by this is not the kind of training the
> Sophists claimed to
> be able to provide for the children of the Athenian
> nouveaux riches.
>
> 'Virtue ethics' is making a sort of come back in
> Western philosophy, but
> it hasn't replaced the typical concern with rules
> and principles.
>
> If Bill insists (and I hope he does) I'll read the
> Protagoras.
>
> Robert Paul
> Reed College
I hope Robert will read the Protagoras for a follow up on
the virtue thread, because we want to get straight, for purposes
of discussion, whether we can teach it, once we know exactly what it is,
its essence, quiddity, the form or idea of it.
The Gorgias is another matter. I think, in terms of argument and
persuasion, the Protagoras is for argument by way of logic, the goal of
which is discovery of a truth , while persuasion is the art of gaining
assent of the listener through rhetoric, or psychology, like Reagan, or
Churchill, or Demosthenes, or even Hitler (question of good and evil
aside). It is what Werner Jaeger in his Paidaia calls the job of the
"rhetor" in ancient Greece. The sophists used argument, like Bush who
lists the simple facts that no one would disagree with on the face of
its simplistic logic. What he needs is to study Ronald Reagan, the
Rhetor, to move the citizenry.
Now that I've thoroughly confused everyone, let's go on.
Bill Ball
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