[lit-ideas] Re: Can God Act Immorally? (Was: St. Anselm, Quaestio XLVII ad b)
- From: wokshevs@xxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:33:51 -0330
snip
> This in connection especially with the two words that I believe Walter
> Okshewsky is misusing and Geary is reprimanding him (W. O.) for that, to
> wit:
>
> omnipower
> omniscience
I'm not clear on who wrote the above, but it is false that I'm misusing those 2
words. If I'm misusing any 2 words, they are "omniscience" and omnipotence" -
the terms I referred to in the relevant post. But of course the antecedent is
false; I know the difference and I thus cannot but use them correctly (ceteris
paribus).
Walter Okshevsky
Chief Accountant
Socratic Accounting and Book-keeping
Langley, DC
>
> For Kenny, this can be formalized in second-order logic as:
>
> For any proposition p, God knows it (onmniscient)
>
> For any action A, God can do it.
>
> But as one reads in Loeb:
>
> "monon gar autou kai theos sterisketai
> ageneta poien hass'an e pepragmena"
>
> (Agathon, cited by Aristotle, Ethika Nikomacheia, 6, 1139b 10-11)
>
> Translated in the Loeb as:
>
>
> "monon gar autou kai theos sterisketai
>
> ageneta poien hass'an e pepragmena"
>
> "Even a god cannot change the past" -- and while Geary may think she (a god)
>
> can, I'm not so sure if it's easy to formalize that.
>
> In any case that would refer to a god's omniscience (or a goddess' -- thea).
>
> To allow past-changing we would have to allow for _men_ being able to change
>
> the past, and I'm reminded of this witticism -- possibly his only one -- by
>
> Alexander Magnus:
>
> "Ei me Alexandros emen, Diogenes an emen"
>
> (Alexander, cited in Loeb, Ploutarkhos, Vitae Parallelae, 14, 3)
>
> "If I were not Alexander, I would be Diogenes". But back to the immorality
> of God (or a god, and surely you'll agree that it was immoral for Zeus to
> abduct Ganymede like *that* -- a nonconsenting adult and being trapped by
> the
> claws of an eagle like that), I am reminded of Geary's obsession with the
> Old
> Testament:
>
> >What human conscience could possibly conscience the >burning to death of
> hundreds of thousands of people in two >cities because they were at odds
> with
> own their beliefs
>
> He is of course referring to the Sodomites of Sodome and the Gomorrhites (of
>
> Gomorrah). I would disagree there though, at minor points:
>
>
> >What human conscience could possibly conscience the >burning to death of
> hundreds of thousands of people in two >cities because they were at odds
> with
> own their beliefs
>
> Are we sure the number is 100 X 1,000? Why not thousands of hundreds?
>
> Cities? In the Middle East, at those ancient times? While myth has it that
> they were the two "cities of the plain", I doubt that they were *cities* in
>
> the sense that New York (or Buenos Ayres) is a *city* -- 'towns', most
> likely
> -- or borroughs.
>
> Then Geary gets I think ungrammatical by talking of 'their own beliefs' when
>
> referring to conscience.
>
>
>
> >What human conscience could possibly conscience the >burning to death of
> hundreds of thousands of people in two >cities because they were at odds
> with
> own their beliefs
>
>
>
> "... because they [Sodomites and Gomorrhites, or gays and lesbians, if you
> must] were at oods with his/her/shit own beliefs. Sorry, but when talking
> about conscience it's very difficult for me to _pluralize_ like Geary does
> by
> using 'their'!
>
> But it's an interesting question, and I hope Ursula amused the audience. If
>
> a goddess *can* be immoral (and she should be if she's 'almighty' --
> 'omnipotent'), then one should read the Ten Commandments as perhaps
> 'desiderata' than
> real _commands_ coming from a legitimate source.
>
> Catholics (like Geary, as he was/is/will be) are very much concerned with
> issues of _infallibility_ (and so was Popper). I.e. the possibility of being
>
> _wrong_. We protestants know better. The Pope is _not_ infallible, and so
> why a
> god be?
>
> I bet the writer of that hymn, "Almighty Undying God only wise" -- wasn't
> thinking when denying an almighty being the ability (might or power) to do
> _wrong_.
>
> But then it's the vicious circle R. Paul was talking about. If we define 'a
>
> god' as someone ('monou autou', in Agathon's phrasing) who _may_ *not* do
> wrong or evil, then it all becomes vacuous as when Nelson (upon dying) told
>
> Hardy,
>
> "Kiss me good -- and remember, it is
> an Enlishman's duty to do his duty"
>
> Cheers,
>
> JL
> Philosopher, etc.
>
> ---
>
> Geary:
>
> Re: scholium ad Sanctus Anselmus, whether a god can be immoral or "trick"
> people
>
>
>
>
> "I'm not so sure. Have you read the Old Testament? It's hard for me to see
> how God could be judged other than immoral. His crimes would screamed to
> heaven had they been committed by a stupid human, much less an omniscient,
> omnipotent being. What human court of justice would make all the descendents
> of a
> murderer die in the electric chair as well as the murderer himself? What
> human
> conscience could possibly conscience the burning to death of hundreds of
> thousands of people in two cities because they were at odds with own their
> beliefs -- OK, yes, the American conscience, but who's else? God, as I've
> seen him
> represented is the most vicious, tyrannical, small-minded being in the
> world,
> except for Christian Evangelicals, so I don't have any problem calling God
> immoral. Let's just hope he's not immortal.
>
> J. L. Speranza, Esq.
>
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>
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>
> jls@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
> http://www.netverk/~jls.htm
>
>
>
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