<<By the way, Bush didn't start this war, the Islamists did. They attacked us and any president would have responded in some fashion. I can't bring to mind a president that would have let such an attack pass. Also, Kerry didn't denounce the war against the Islamists. He didn't fault Bush for the war. He just said he would have fought it differently, e.g. by getting France and Germany to help and waiting for U.N. approval.>> Hussein is/was not an Islamisist. He was thoroughly secular and persecuted the most religious of the Muslims. To call attacking Iraq an attack on the Islamisists conflates issues. It's not clear whether the current "insurgents" are Islamisists or not, but if they are, they have merely filled a void. There was nothing Islamisist about Hussein's regime. Julie Krueger ========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: CFP: PEACE REVIEW on the PsychologicalInterpretation of War Date: 12/8/04 5:24:13 PM Central Standard Time From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on: Gee, Andy, you quote a couple of my long paragraphs and then, and then try to reduce them to a single sentence and assume you have captured what I said. You didn't. I've covered these matters in two notes now, but I don't want to beat a dead horse. If you don't get it, you just don't. Moving right along then: John Kerry as your modern day St. Francis??? Gosh. We must be living in alternative universes. The Kerry in my universe doesn't seem up to it. You asked what I meant by verbally violent pacifists. I am referring to people who claim to be against war under any circumstance but who engage in flame wars with those who disagree with them. I am not a pacifist. I believe any nation that isn't willing to defend itself either won't survive or will have to rely upon another nation for its protection. Words come from the heart, and if a person's words are violent, he doesn't make a very credible pacifist. By the way, Bush didn't start this war, the Islamists did. They attacked us and any president would have responded in some fashion. I can't bring to mind a president that would have let such an attack pass. Also, Kerry didn't denounce the war against the Islamists. He didn't fault Bush for the war. He just said he would have fought it differently, e.g. by getting France and Germany to help and waiting for U.N. approval. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:32 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: CFP: PEACE REVIEW on the PsychologicalInterpretation of War -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Dec 8, 2004 2:04 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: CFP: PEACE REVIEW on the PsychologicalInterpretation of War A long time ago, when I was 17, I enlisted in the Marine Corps. I didn't enlist for reasons of comradeship -- I had no friends joining with me. There was a war going on -- the Korean War. I don't recall how astute I was at that age, but the nation declared a need, the sort of need that young men have been called to meet since the earliest days of mankind's' recorded history. I take it that if Koenigsberg were part of our discussion, he would be interested in my motivations. He would be interested in what sort of aberration caused me to talk my mother into signing the papers so I could enlist in the Marine Corps. But Koenigsberg would be better off examining the history of the times: the relationship between the USSR and the USA. He should read about the Truman administration and learn about the writings of George Kennan. The Truman doctrine had been created to combat the USSR and its influence. The Korean War was an application of that doctrine. That application was the cause of our entry into that War, not my willingness to join the Marine Corps. To argue that there could not have been a justification for our going to war with North Korea implies that we should not have had a policy that opposed the USSR and that we should have allowed North Korea to invade our ally South Korea. To search for the reasons for war in the psychology of individual soldiers is searching in the wrong place. It is also wrong to search for the reasons for this war in the psychology of Truman, Acheson, or Kennan. None of those three wanted to go to war in Korea, but they weren't willing to abandon our ally South Korea. As an alternative to Koenigsberg's psychological exercise, consider the psychological implications of American leaders who at that time could have abandoned South Korea to the North Koreans. A.A. Restating your position, times and countries create war, people don't create war. This begs the question: who creates the times and countries? L.H. I am presently reading Ian Kershaw's Hitler, 1889-1936: Hubris. I am on page 432 and it is 1933. Hitler has just become Chancellor. Hitler has made his policies known. He intends to go to war - not because he loves war, although I suppose he loved it as much as anyone. He wanted to go to war to give Germans lebensraum and to counter the effects of the people he called "the November Criminals." He thought the Germans were the master race and deserved to gain as much lebensraum as it needed through war. He thought the Germans were better at war than anyone else. It is possible to examine many of Hitler's motives, but as much as he loved war, however much that was, it couldn't be said that he went to war because he loved war. The objectives of his war were the reasons he went to war. Lebensraum in the East and the countering of the effects of the ignominious surrender after World War One were probably the prime reasons. A.A. If he hated war and violence, he would have found another way to meet his ends. He chose instead to go to war, and his people chose to follow him. He hated peace, so he shunned it. L.H. We are a conflicted people - all of us are. We engage in conflicts throughout life. The nations that represent us also engage in conflicts. It would be better to focus on the nature and reasons for our conflicts than in the dubious love of war. A.A. So far, through 2004, focusing on reasons for conflicts just has yielded one solution: war, ever bigger, ever badder. L.H. Imagine a nation filled with adults who each possessed the personality of St. Francis of Assisi. Perhaps that nation could avoid war - at least it would stand a better chance than any nation that exists today. Now that would be an interesting project, all you pacifists: give up your verbal violence. Stop railing against people who disagree with you. Become more like St. Francis. A.A. Bush purportedly is focused on religion, and he started a war that will last for years if not decades. Perhaps we need a president who could lead us in becoming more like St. Francis. Kerry was the man to do that and he was defeated. In fact, he denounced the Vietnam War and was vilified for it. My question to you is, what specifically is verbally violent from pacifists? Andy Amago ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html