[lit-ideas] Re: Anti-Americanism, this malediction considered
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:05:12 -0700
Omar,
You write, "Muslims who are moderate in their approach to religion are not
necessarily tame in their attitude to the US and/or Israel . . ." Yes, I'm
aware of this. Using Joffe's analyses, the anti-Americanism of Muslims
outside of the Middle East might more closely match that of the Europeans'.
Europeans don't wish us destroyed, but they disagree with a great number of
things that we do and are. But when we get back to the Middle East, I'm not
sure how useful it is to try and distinguish between the Fundamentalists who
wish us destroyed and your hypothetical Moderates who merely hate us.
I have gone looking for Islamic Moderates in the Middle East. I mentioned
reading Francois Burgat's The Islamic Movement in North Africa. The
edition I read was published in 1997 but he seems to have published it in
French in 1988 and then initially in English in 1993. Burgat describes
several Islamic intellectuals that he admires. I had resolved to keep track
of them and see if they influenced the Maghreb toward moderation, but my
impression is that they have become less moderate as time went on.
Raymond William Baker's Islam without Fear, Egypt and the New Islamists,
2003, probably illustrates your thesis. Baker who is definitely an Arabist
presents a number of intellectual Egyptian Islamists he admires, but in
reading what he says about their beliefs, I wouldn't place them in a
moderate camp. What they want is not so very different from what the
Fundamentalists want. They just want to go about it differently.
I read Abdelwahab Meddeb's The Malady of Islam, published in French in 2002
and in English in 2003. You would I'm sure describe Meddeb as a moderate
Muslim. He condemned Fundamentalism. It is Fundamentalism that is the
"Malady of Islam," but he doesn't side with America. His position is closer
to that of the land in which he resides. [He was at the time of the
publication of his book, professor of Comparative Literature at the
University of Paris X-Nanterre, and lives in Paris]
I mentioned earlier an appreciation for the Japanese, but I also appreciate
the Chinese. I studied their history a bit at one time. I was especially
interested in Chinese poetry but also read a few Chinese novels in
translation. I can sympathize with their disapproval of what can only be
described as licentiousness here in America. They hope to become as wealthy
as America without succumbing to its chaotic self-indulgence. I should
mention that many in Christian circles here share the view of the Chinese.
Any sort of curbing of this licentiousness is seen as inhibiting civil
rights. Perhaps we will one day mature to the point of realizing that such
expressions are not in anyone's best interest. But for the time being, we
place an emphasis on freedom. We might disapprove of certain music,
activities, speech, stupidities, but we realize that if we attempt to curb
them we may set something in motion we may not like. It would be best if
individuals could learn to curb their own stupidities, but who is there to
teach them to do that?
Still, there isn't enough in that to make me Anti-American. I live here and
it isn't as bad as the Chinese think. They picture and describe various
aspects of American unpleasantness, and while it exists in various places,
it doesn't exist where I live, nor does it exist, I suspect, where most
Americans live. Americans can find the licentiousness if they want to, but
they don't have to; which is one of the characteristics of our freedom.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Chinese prefer prohibitions and punishment
for violating these prohibitions. By the way there doesn't seem to be a
good way of separating personal freedom from economic freedom. I have read
that the Chinese will eventually have to choose between their prohibitions
and greater economic success. Perhaps they will make a decision similar to
the Europeans and choose something a little less successful economically in
order to maintain their desired social benefits.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: Omar Kusturica
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Anti-Americanism, this malediction considered
--- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Omar, You don't say anything of your own in this
> post of yours, but since
> you left my Subject title I assume you are saying
> that Anti-Islamism is also
> a malediction.
*You guessed it.
I'll further assume that you agree
> with the author of the
> post you cite, Abukar Arman.
*I agree with most of the things he says in this
article.
I do share Arman's
> concern but I see it
> differently. I have wondered where Moderate Muslims
> were in the Middle
> East. Several times I made the comment that if I
> ever found a reasonable
> article from a moderate Muslim he was sure to be
> writing from the safety of
> the U.S. or Europe. There is no question but that
> Moderate Muslims exist in
> great numbers in the U.S., but unfortunately they
> have been subdued in the
> Middle East.
*I think that, as usually, we are confusing several
different things there. Muslims who are moderate in
their approach to religion are not necessarily tame in
their attitude to the US and / or Israel, and vice
versa. There is perhaps some correlation between the
two at the moment, but this is far from being a
mathematical formula. You seem to think that most
moderate Muslims reside in the US, but many of those
'moderate Muslims' would qualify as fundamentalists.
Indeed, as I pointed out before, the US and the
fundamentalists have a history of co-operation in
Afghanistan in the 1980s, in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia and
in other places.
I don't find them speaking out there,
> and it was about this I
> was most concerned - a concern Arman doesn't seem to
> share - or rather he
> seems to suggest that somehow we in the U.S. are
> muting our moderate Muslims
> in their attempts to educate Muslims in the Middle
> East. I seriously doubt
> that many Muslims in the Middle East care what they
> write. The comments I
> have read suggest that the Middle-Eastern Muslims,
> the Moderates who don't
> write or speak out, feel resentful against Muslims
> who flee to America and
> from there boldly speak out. "Who cares what they
> write in America? They
> have almost certainly sold out to the enemy," seems
> to be the resentful
> accusation.
*Again, it depends on who qualifies as a moderate. The
mainstream media of countries like Egypt, Jordan,
Lebanon, Pakistan etc. are still fairly secular in
outlook. But they are not generally pro-American or
pro-Israeli. In general, Lawrence, I think that you
and your authors are deceiving yourselves that liberal
attitudes must result in pro-American sympathies. This
is not the case in China, either, speaking from
personal experience of having lived here for five
years. But it's late here, so the China discussion
will have to await another day.
O.K.
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