Or how pirots karulise elatically (and baboons behave heroically): some simpler ways Grice loved Kantotle. Kantotle possibly is most famous for his graffito: "Your best egoistic choice is to be an altruist". He said that in a mixture of Greek and German -- and the phenomena may apply to baboons. "If altruism gets displayed in self-sacrifice, egoism should possibly get displayed in other-sacrifice" (Geary, "Random thoughts on the Holy Trinity"). In a message dated 5/26/2014 5:44:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: "In the above post, Lawrence then goes on to refer to humans and human altruism and does not bring in animals or other organisms." But in a previous post, "Here Lawrence clearly refers to baboons." ... "[O]nce his comments stray so as to encompass "baboons" then he is talking of "group selection" where Darwinian principles apply." For the record, here (b in ps) are the bibiliographical references to animals other than homo sapiens sapiens sapiens and baboons, as per "Biological altruism" that McEvoy and I were commenting. As the author (S. O.) notes, 'altruism' becomes a bit of a puzzling word when applied to the 'biological' unless we are ready to use the term in a way 'other' than what philosophers like Grice (ordinary language philosophers) adore: to wit: ordinary language! It may also do to look for the source of the baboon example, since the way it gets 'described' may tell the difference. As Wittgenstein noted, the way we 'describe' (apparently objectively) a piece of behaviour may already be loaded with 'psychological' conceptualisations that belong to the observer rather than, er, the baboon, or Simia hamadryas if you must (Linnaeus, 1758) Cheers Speranza (a) Helm: "One early author ... referred to a pair of adult baboon males guarding their tribes passage up through a narrow passage where they would be safe for the night. The leopard came and they set upon it with precession. The leopard killed both of them, but before he did, one of them bit into the leopard’s jugular." (b) Avital, E. and Jablonka, E., Animal Traditions: Behavioural Inheritance in Evolution, Cambridge University Press. Bowles, S. and Gintis, H., A Cooperative Species: Human Reciprocity and its Evolution, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Bourke, A. and Franks, N., Social Evolution in Ants, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Carter, G. G. and Wilkinson, G. S., ‘Food Sharing in Vampire Bats: reciprocal help predicts donations more than relatedness or harassment’, Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 280. Cronin, H., The Ant and the Peacock, Cambridge University Press. Dugatkin, L. A., Cooperation among Animals: an Evolutionary Perspective, Oxford University Press. Gardner, A. and West S. A., ‘Greenbeards’, Evolution, 64(1): 25–38. GRICE, H. P. Method in philosophical psychology: from the banal to the bizarre. Repr. in Conception of Value. (on squirrels and squarels). GRICE, H. P. Unpublications. The Grice Papers. Bancroft Library, UC/Berkeley. Hamilton, W. ‘Altruism and Related Phenomena, mainly in the Social Insects’ , Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, 3. Hammerstein, P., ‘Why is Reciprocity so Rare in Social Animals? A Protestant Appeal’, in P. Hammerstein (ed.) Genetic and Cultural Evolution of Cooperation, Cambridge MA: MIT Press. Lehmann, L., Keller, L., West, S., and Roze, D., ‘Group Selection and Kin Selection: Two Concepts but One Process’, Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, 104 Marshall, J. A., ‘Group Selection and Kin Selection: formally equivalent approaches’, Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 26 Maynard Smith, J. ––– ‘The Theory of Games and the Evolution of Animal Conflicts, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 47 Wilkinson, G. S., ‘Reciprocal Food Sharing in the Vampire Bat’, Nature, 308 –––, 1990, ‘Food Sharing in Vampire Bats’, Scientific American, 262, 2: 64–70. Wilson, D. –––‘On the Relationship between Evolutionary and Psychological Definitions of Altruism and Egoism’, Biology and Philosophy, 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html