[lifesaviors] Re: [Palaces4People] Re: Shared walls and floors
- From: "Lion Kuntz" <lionkuntz@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: Palaces4People@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Palaces4Japan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:45:39 -0800
As always, thanks for your comments. Since I could anticipate that the
vulnerable areas I pointed out myself (floors and roofs) would be question
areas I immediately followed that posting by beginning illustrating the
flooring and roofing structural components. I have the makings of a nice new
page coming along.
The numbers which come out of the calculator astonish ME!!!
Until I processed the numbers I had no idea that you could fit 3 to 6 houses
out on the huge patios, or fit 4 to 8 of them inside the condo/apartments. I
knew there were synergetic savings in walls, but not that you could enclose a
palace with the same amount of walling used in 118 of those cottages, and have
enough wall materials left over to build 38 more cottages. Who knew, eh???
Until I searched over webpage after webpage and gleaned the data on actual
Orissa house sizes, who knew that 118 families lived under 2,950 sq.meters of
roof? Obviously Palaces with 10,000 sq.meters of roof (one standard hectare,
2.54 acres) have 3.4 times as much rooftops to pay for, but that one-hectare of
roof covers 3.2 hectares of of inside space. Who knew you could get 10 times
the indoors for 3.4 times the roofing costs, eh???
http://www.ecosyn.us/Ecovillage/Orissa_Budget/Orissa_Budget_01a.html
I take it that your message was written before you received my Orissa Budget
Part 1 website announcement and other backup data pages. I have just gotten to
the point that I understand the nuances of the image-mapping where I can paint
a picture of a brick wall onto a plain flat polygon, without having to actually
model the thousands of individual bricks like I was doing before.
The ability to portray multiple facades will make future models look more
homey, more livable, more comfy. The software I use is a freeware discontinued
orphan product which comes with no support and not always clear help files.
The new project is to model the octet truss framework which holds everything
together and everything up. Since Octet Trusses have running voids through
their cores, piping and electrical conduit can be mounted in a workshop before
the trusses are brought to the jobsite. After erection and joining of the
trusses and their internal infrastructure, a cementitious plaster will seal the
trusses and their hidden loads. With three separate plumbing systems running
through the building, I am thinking of adding a fourth system as a
"radient-style" heating-cooling system. This too flows through the subflooring
Octet Trusses.
The multiple needs for waterproofing all floors so that any plumbing leak is
contained in the place it happens and does not ruinate everything below on
several floors is not a problem in glod-plated neighborhoods, but stands as an
"unsolved mystery" how to do it on an Orissan Budget.
A top surface coat of ceramic tiles for waterproofing floors, both indoors and
outdoors on the patio terraced roof-decks is a good universal solution. Ceramic
tiles are probably what they use in the shower room of your gym or health club,
right? Maybe you have a tile bathroom?
Exactly what is under the tiles is still an issue, between the octet trusses
and their stonelike shell, and the tiles, materials are asked to do sometimes
conflicting things: be soundproof, be waterproof, be economical, be impervious
from secret rots. Cellular cement has good soundproofing, good waterproofing,
is economical in using imported materials, loadbearing, good thermal
insulation. (Good thermal insulation -- Drats, that means ungood for radient
heat-cooling system. Bummer, dude.)
This is the group problem-solving process we are all herein assembled
attempting to move forward, right?
... Lion Kuntz
NEW webpage:
http://www.ecosyn.us/Ecovillage/Orissa_Budget/Orissa_Budget_01a.html
----- Original Message -----
From: David Neeley <dbneeley@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:01:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Palaces4People@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Palaces4People] Re: Shared walls and floors
> Lion,
>
> I read your latest note with interest, and took a few
> minutes from there to explore some of the related web
> pages.
>
> Specifically, I wish to address the material on your page
> "Sharing Walls and Floors to Reduce Housing Costs" at
> http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Palaces/Shared/Shared_01.html.
>
> This is not at all a major criticism of what you have said
> there, but merely a suggestion for some small refinement
> (and yes, I know this is part of your idea development and
> not a major element on its own--my intent is only to
> discuss a few details).
>
> First, there seems to me to be little difference between
> the partitions between the units that are stacked and the
> floor/foundation requirements of the single story Orissa
> units. They must be essentially "weather" tight to contain
> spills and such from upper units until they can be removed,
> and they must be structurally sound to bear the weights
> involved. Thus, to me they seem to be more similar to
> "exterior" than to "interior" walls. I would like to see
> your cost calculations of these structural members at some
> point to determine if they are, indeed, cheaper than the
> original dwellings' exterior walls.
>
> Additionally, the foundation requirements for the
> multi-story building are more extensive than for the single
> story ones...especially in the case of the class of
> building units you'd be replacing or substituting for.
> While I have no doubt whatsoever that the principal is
> valid, I merely believe your computations for savings need
> to be adjusted accordingly.
>
> When considering interior wall partitions, I have no doubt
> that you are correct that they should be cheaper to build
> than any exterior ones. To control sound between the units
> and afford some degree of privacy, it may be necessary to
> consider a double-wall construction with an insulation
> medium between (untreated rice hulls would be my
> suggestion--high enough silica content to be extremely
> durable and fire retardant with no additional
> processing--and in the areas you are speaking of rice hulls
> should be readily and cheaply available!).
>
> I believe that if you can show such a greater standard of
> living, the additional floorspace and amenities for the
> families, and savings in land area and materials even of a
> more modest proportion than you have listed, you still have
> a tremendously exciting plan.
>
> In my experience, though, people charged with control over
> large amounts of funds are leery of claims that seem to
> them to be over large. Refining the program to the point
> where qualified architects and engineers can agree that it
> is within reason would seem to be advisable.
>
> David
--
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