[LRflex] Never buy version 1 of anything new!
- From: jgluckphoto66@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: leicareflex@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:56:03 -0500
I've been a lurker here for years and rarely post, but the M8 IR debacle
only reinforces the point that you should NEVER buy the first edition of
a such a new product. Always wait for the kinks to be worked out. I've
been anxiously waiting for a digital M for years, BUT I'm patient enough
to await the second, third or fourth editions, or an M9, whatever Leica
calls it. Why be the guinea pig for them, especially at $5,000?
Jeff Gluck
ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>Leica Reflex Forum Digest
>+------------------------+------------------------------------
>leicareflex Digest Wed, 22 Nov 2006 Volume: 03 Issue: 323
>
>In This Issue:
> [LRflex] The M8's impact on the R10
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
> [LRflex] Re: [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
> [LRflex] Re: [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] IMG: Tundra Swan
> [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
> [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
> [LRflex] Unofficial Leica announcements re M8 reported
> [LRflex] Leica Camera posting re M8
> [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:17:19 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] The M8's impact on the R10
>
>Bill Abbott offered"
>
>
>
>>http://www.financial.de/newsroom/news_d/86103.html
>>
>>Let us all hope the current contretemps about M8 IR filtering gets =20
>>put to bed quickly with little or no technical. sales, or financial =20
>>impact.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Hi Bill!
>
>Most interesting! Leica's loss is 1 million Euros lower, despite a 2
>million Euro increase in expenses. That part looks good!
>
>The M8's current IR debacle is important to "R" users in that if the
>M8 is a financial success (it looked as if it would be a runaway
>success prior to the IR problem raising its ugly head), the next
>generation R10 is virtually assured. But if the M8 fails to sell well...
>
>Leica have talked about making a B&W only version of the M8. Here,
>IR sensitivity would not be a problem and could be seen as an
>asset. It makes me wonder if Leica could fix the problem in new
>sensors with a different coating on the sensor's protective glass,
>and then recall the existing stock for a switch of sensors. The
>original sensors could then be used to create the b&w
>version! True, the Bayer-pattern filters would still be in place,
>but it may be possible to work around that, in firmware.
>
>If this is possible, it would be an expensive solution for Leica, but
>nowhere near as expensive as simply throwing the sensors away! (This
>brings to mind the "bad math" Pentium scandal, a few years ago!)
>
>If they can solve this problem, both from a technical and public
>relations standpoint, I still think they can recover enough to make
>the M8 a successful player in the game. But, I do not think people
>will accept Leica's first solution... using an IR cutting filter one
>each lens to compensate for a problem which simply should not be in a
>$5000 camera. They will accept it, even less, if Leica expect them
>to pay for the filters!
>
>So, Bill, thanks for posting this little tidbit!
>
>Cheers!
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:27:52 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>Colin wrote:
>
>
>
>>Well, if they're suggesting putting an IR filter on the front of the
>>lens to solve the purple black plastic bag problem - I hope it's an
>>IR-blocking IR filter ;-)
>>
>>
>
>Indeed, it will be! But there has to be a more elegant solution. (A
>low pass IR filter, btw, looks just like a UV filter - in fact, if
>they do it right, it will be a combination low-pass IR & UV filter.
>
>I fear that a low-pass IR filter (what we usually call IR filters are
>high-pass filters) will not be received well by users. Especially if
>Leica expect them to pay for it! Worse, even if Leica give each
>buyer one, most M8 buyers have more than one lens, thus requiring a
>filter for each. I can certainly see buyer resistance in that approach!
>
>There has probably been more M8 discussion, on the list, of late,
>than 'R' series discussion. For this, I apologize to those who are
>not interested in "M" cameras. But it's an event worth watching, for
>as goes the M8, goes the R10!
>
>Cheers!
>
>
>
>
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:07:28 -0500
>From: "a aa" <classwp@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>An IR filter can be simply added in the form of a coating that will
>prevent IR from being transmitted to the sensor. Perhaps a Mk 2
>version will have this ?
>
>On 22/11/06, David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>>Colin wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well, if they're suggesting putting an IR filter on the front of the
>>>lens to solve the purple black plastic bag problem - I hope it's an
>>>IR-blocking IR filter ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>Indeed, it will be! But there has to be a more elegant solution. (A
>>low pass IR filter, btw, looks just like a UV filter - in fact, if
>>they do it right, it will be a combination low-pass IR & UV filter.
>>
>>I fear that a low-pass IR filter (what we usually call IR filters are
>>high-pass filters) will not be received well by users. Especially if
>>Leica expect them to pay for it! Worse, even if Leica give each
>>buyer one, most M8 buyers have more than one lens, thus requiring a
>>filter for each. I can certainly see buyer resistance in that approach!
>>
>>There has probably been more M8 discussion, on the list, of late,
>>than 'R' series discussion. For this, I apologize to those who are
>>not interested in "M" cameras. But it's an event worth watching, for
>>as goes the M8, goes the R10!
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>
>>David Young,
>>Logan Lake, CANADA
>>
>>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------
>>Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>> http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
>>Archives are at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/
>>
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:19:46 +0100
>From: Philippe Amard <phamard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
>
>Hi list,
>I turned a senior last week and was offered a new camera by family and
>friends.
>(David was in the know, I wasn't :-D ).
>One more camera to carry around?
>Yes, but digital this time!
>No DMR, no R10, ...
>a Lumix. :-[
>A Lumix, with a Leica zoom lense 8-) .
>
>My first impression of the Pana camera is NOT negative AT ALL, even
>though I know feel my age when perusing the booklet and running through
>the menus - some will know the feeling I'm sure ;-)
>
>I haven't had time to discover much, but the camera feel is friendly
>enough to invite a Leica fan to go further, much further.
>
>What I like best? the lense of course.
>My second best? the on/off switch, located as on the R3. Remember how
>easy to operate it was?
>Plenty more of course, but I don't want to bore you, yet.
>
>Just for you to have an opinion I've posted two pixes (should I say
>bunches of pixels?) at this address.
><http://gallery.leica-users.org/d/62475-1/Lumix-Thanks.jpg>
>N°1 is a crop of n°2.
>I'm not pretending either is any good, far from it. But for anyone
>willing to see what the Vario-Elmarit can do, this is a starting point.
>
>Comments, suggestions, advice and questions more welcome than ever.
>
>Yours
>Phileicangemix
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:36:13 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
>
>Philippe Amard offered:
>
>
>
>>Just for you to have an opinion I've posted two pixes (should I say
>>bunches of pixels?) at this address.
>><http://gallery.leica-users.org/d/62475-1/Lumix-Thanks.jpg>
>>N=B01 is a crop of n=B02.
>>I'm not pretending either is any good, far from it. But for anyone
>>willing to see what the Vario-Elmarit can do, this is a starting point.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Philippe!
>
>You Europeans age fast! Over on this side of the=20
>pond, one is not a 'senior' until age 55, at the=20
>earliest, and usually not until 60 or 65.
>
>Your shot is very nice... good colour. Hard to=20
>tell much more due to the nature of the=20
>shot. However, judging from your earlier works,=20
>you'll do fine with the PanaLeica!
>
>Have fun with your new toy!
>
>
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:45:46 +0100
>From: Philippe Amard <phamard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: [Vario-Elmarit - My first shots
>
>
>David Young wrote:
>
>
>
>>Philippe Amard offered:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Just for you to have an opinion I've posted two pixes (should I say
>>>bunches of pixels?) at this address.
>>><http://gallery.leica-users.org/d/62475-1/Lumix-Thanks.jpg>
>>>N=B01 is a crop of n=B02.
>>>I'm not pretending either is any good, far from it. But for anyone
>>>willing to see what the Vario-Elmarit can do, this is a starting point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Hi Philippe!
>>
>>You Europeans age fast! Over on this side of the=20
>>pond, one is not a 'senior' until age 55, at the=20
>>earliest, and usually not until 60 or 65.
>>
>>Your shot is very nice... good colour. Hard to=20
>>tell much more due to the nature of the=20
>>shot. However, judging from your earlier works,=20
>>you'll do fine with the PanaLeica!
>>
>>Have fun with your new toy!
>>
>>
>>---
>>
>>David Young,
>>Logan Lake, CANADA
>>
>>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------
>>Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>> http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
>>Archives are at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:45:22 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>"a aa" wrote:
>
>
>
>>An IR filter can be simply added in the form of a coating that will
>>prevent IR from being transmitted to the sensor. Perhaps a Mk 2
>>version will have this ?
>>
>>
>
>
>Of course it can, and I don't know why they didn't do this at the
>start! Perhaps they felt it would enhance the reproduction of
>reds... and failed to see the other consequences. I don't know.
>
>I just hope that they can figure out a way to adapt the present
>cameras, so that the current owners will not suffer "buyers remorse",
>which could cost them dearly.
>
>I know that all shipments of M8's have been halted, at present, while
>Leica work on the problem. But they need to come up with an
>acceptable solution (filters are not an acceptable solution) and quickly!
>
>Cheers!
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Douglas Herr <telyt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] IMG: Tundra Swan
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:31:05 -0800
>
>technically not great, but a wonderful bird to have in the area:
>
><http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/tusw00.jpg>
>
>R8/DMR, 560 f/5.6, ISO 400, heavily cropped.
>
>Doug Herr
>Birdman of Sacramento
>http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Douglas Herr <telyt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:46:16 -0800
>
>
>On Nov 22, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Douglas Herr wrote:
>
>
>
>>technically not great, but a wonderful bird to have in the area:
>>
>><http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/tusw00.jpg>
>>
>>R8/DMR, 560 f/5.6, ISO 400, heavily cropped.
>>
>>Doug Herr
>>Birdman of Sacramento
>>http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>oops, that's the 560mm f/6.8, not f/5.6
>
>Doug Herr
>Birdman of Sacramento
>http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:19:48 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
>
>At 22/11/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>>technically not great, but a wonderful bird to have in the area:
>>
>><http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/tusw00.jpg>
>>
>>R8/DMR, 560 f/5.6, ISO 400, heavily cropped.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Doug!
>
>And, pray tell, what is technically wrong with it?
>
>OK - heavily cropped and possibly not suitable for huge
>enlargement. But it's tarp as a shack, and aesthetically, as good as
>you're likely to get for a bird in flight!
>
>For web use, absolutely superb!
>
>Cheers!
>
>
>
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Dr. Puritz" <drpuritz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:37:00 -0500
>
>David: Just a quick question: Given the financial progress that Leica has
>made, did you get any idea about the success of the DMR? Is the DMR still
>being made in quantity? One might envision the M8( once the problems are
>solved ) as being a bigger seller then the DMR.
>
>Any idea when the planned R 10 will be "available"?
>
>Elliot
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:34:08 -0800
>From: David Young <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>At 22/11/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>>David: Just a quick question: Given the financial progress that Leica has
>>made, did you get any idea about the success of the DMR? Is the DMR still
>>being made in quantity? One might envision the M8( once the problems are
>>solved ) as being a bigger seller then the DMR.
>>
>>Any idea when the planned R 10 will be "available"?
>>
>>Elliot
>>
>>
>
>
>Hi Elliot!
>
>To answer your questions:
>
>The DMR is selling steadily, if more slowly than Leica would like.
>
>It is no longer being made in quantity. In fact, it is not being
>made, at all! This is because Imacon both designed and built the DMR
>for Leica under contract. Leica figured out the number they'd likely
>need and had Imacon built them all at once. Thus, "no longer being
>made" does NOT equate to "being discontinued". It was simply more
>economical to make them that way. (I know, it's hard to think of the
>DMR as "economical", but the price would be worse, were they being
>made in small batches!)
>
>Imacon continue to develop the firmware for the DMR and should Leica
>sell out of them before the mythical R10 is produced, they'll have
>Imacon build another batch. This I have, straight from the horse's
>mouth - as it were.
>
>As for the M8, I suspect it is already a bigger seller than the
>DMR! However, whether it will be much bigger will depend on how
>fast, and how well, Leica solve their IR related colour shift problem.
>
>The mythical R10 is now in the early planning stages. What form it
>will take - a mini-DMR with upgradeable sensors (my choice!) or a
>fixed sensor camera like the current Canon's or Nikons, or something
>else entirely - is likely not yet even known within Leica itself. As
>I said, they are only at the EARLY planning stages. Which is why our
>little survey was so important to them!
>
>The R-10 is expected be introduced at the next Photokina... end of
>September, 2008, with availability some time after that. Whether
>this actually happens, or not, will depend on whether the M8 is a
>successful as they hope! And that will depend on how well, and how
>fast, they solve their current M8 woes.
>
>Having met the new management, I have every reason to believe that
>they will get it right and, after a short hiccup, will be very
>successful with the M8. That, in turn, will assure the R10 to follow!
>
>Cheers!
>
>
>
>---
>
>David Young,
>Logan Lake, CANADA
>
>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:37:23 -0800
>From: Ted Grant <tedgrant@xxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>David I have to ask one question about this IR stuff?
>
>Where does one find this happening and under what light conditions?. Sorry 2
>questions
>
>ted
>Ted Grant Photography Limited
>1817 Feltham Road
>Victoria BC V8N 2A4
>250-477-2156
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Young" <telyt@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: <leicareflex@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:34 PM
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: Comparison of M8 Photos in Infra-Red.
>
>
>
>
>>At 22/11/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>David: Just a quick question: Given the financial progress that Leica
>>>has
>>>made, did you get any idea about the success of the DMR? Is the DMR still
>>>being made in quantity? One might envision the M8( once the problems are
>>>solved ) as being a bigger seller then the DMR.
>>>
>>>Any idea when the planned R 10 will be "available"?
>>>
>>>Elliot
>>>
>>>
>>Hi Elliot!
>>
>>To answer your questions:
>>
>>The DMR is selling steadily, if more slowly than Leica would like.
>>
>>It is no longer being made in quantity. In fact, it is not being
>>made, at all! This is because Imacon both designed and built the DMR
>>for Leica under contract. Leica figured out the number they'd likely
>>need and had Imacon built them all at once. Thus, "no longer being
>>made" does NOT equate to "being discontinued". It was simply more
>>economical to make them that way. (I know, it's hard to think of the
>>DMR as "economical", but the price would be worse, were they being
>>made in small batches!)
>>
>>Imacon continue to develop the firmware for the DMR and should Leica
>>sell out of them before the mythical R10 is produced, they'll have
>>Imacon build another batch. This I have, straight from the horse's
>>mouth - as it were.
>>
>>As for the M8, I suspect it is already a bigger seller than the
>>DMR! However, whether it will be much bigger will depend on how
>>fast, and how well, Leica solve their IR related colour shift problem.
>>
>>The mythical R10 is now in the early planning stages. What form it
>>will take - a mini-DMR with upgradeable sensors (my choice!) or a
>>fixed sensor camera like the current Canon's or Nikons, or something
>>else entirely - is likely not yet even known within Leica itself. As
>>I said, they are only at the EARLY planning stages. Which is why our
>>little survey was so important to them!
>>
>>The R-10 is expected be introduced at the next Photokina... end of
>>September, 2008, with availability some time after that. Whether
>>this actually happens, or not, will depend on whether the M8 is a
>>successful as they hope! And that will depend on how well, and how
>>fast, they solve their current M8 woes.
>>
>>Having met the new management, I have every reason to believe that
>>they will get it right and, after a short hiccup, will be very
>>successful with the M8. That, in turn, will assure the R10 to follow!
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>
>>David Young,
>>Logan Lake, CANADA
>>
>>Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>>Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------
>>Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>> http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
>>Archives are at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.12/545 - Release Date:
>>21/11/2006
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: William Abbott <wbabbott3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Unofficial Leica announcements re M8 reported
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:41:45 -0800
>
>Hi all-
>
>Again, via Google Alerts, please see:
>
>http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?
>p=423795#post423795
>
>for unofficial Leica announcements re M8.
>
>As ever,
>
>Bill
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: William Abbott <wbabbott3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Leica Camera posting re M8
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:45:00 -0800
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please see
>
>http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/10045-new-info-my-
>dealer.html
>
>for more on M8.
>
>As ever,
>
>Bill
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Douglas Herr <telyt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [LRflex] Re: IMG: Tundra Swan
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:01:39 -0800
>
>On Nov 22, 2006, at 6:19 PM, David Young wrote:
>
>
>
>>At 22/11/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>technically not great, but a wonderful bird to have in the area:
>>>
>>><http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/anatidae/tusw00.jpg>
>>>
>>>R8/DMR, 560 f/5.6, ISO 400, heavily cropped.
>>>
>>>
>>Hi Doug!
>>
>>And, pray tell, what is technically wrong with it?
>>
>>OK - heavily cropped and possibly not suitable for huge
>>enlargement. But it's tarp as a shack, and aesthetically, as good as
>>you're likely to get for a bird in flight!
>>
>>For web use, absolutely superb!
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>
>>
>
>Thanks David. It is, as I initially wrote, heavily cropped, not
>downsized much for the web!
>
>Doug Herr
>Birdman of Sacramento
>http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of leicareflex Digest V3 #323
>*********************************
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Other related posts:
- » [LRflex] Never buy version 1 of anything new!
