[jhb_airlines] Re: FPI Session for Tuesday night

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:00:10 +0100

Again a couple of good questions here and well worth going into. Before
I do please accept one rather valid fact. A lot of pilots are new to the
ATC environment and some are timid - fearful of making a hash of it when
on line. This may lead to the habit of not daring to do anything until
someone in ATC tells you. A lot of people providing the ATC are equally
rookie at this sort of work and without in depth knowledge of the system
they can rapidly get into a mess. Some people providing ATC spend a lot
of time doing unnecessary things - lots of vectoring for example - and
fail to provide any form of separation. Separation comes first and the
vectoring is intended to achieve that. More on this in a moment.

Back to the aircraft now and the first thing that I must say is that YOU
are the Captain. You are ultimately in charge of the aircraft and know
its performance and abilities. You have filed a flight plan, you know
what level you are aiming for - and you should know the climb and
descent profiles. If you reach TOD (top of descent) point and ATC
haven't cleared you down then you know the rest of the flight is going
to get messy. ATC don't really know your TOD, although they'll have a
good guess with experience, and should either say "when ready descend
to.." or, most likely, start you down a bit prematurely. ATC will only
be thinking about your descent in relation to other aircraft in your
vicinity and won't be thinking about your performance issues at all.

With that said it follows that you should scream if you don't get a
descent clearance before TOD. You will also be expected to manage your
airspeed during the flight including the speed restraints that are part
of the system. Just to refresh these are mandatory 250kts below FL100,
210kts approaching the holding facility for an airfield (such as BNN for
EGLL and POL for EGCC) and 180kts max by the time you intercept the ILS.
Again this should all be part of your flight planning.

Your comment about asking to change to Manchester isn't valid because
the controllers are limited by the airspace they "own". Technically I
could have asked for all aircraft as they passed FL130 but this is messy
to implement and so I told Andy to clear all aircraft down to FL70 and
put them over to me if he didn't have any conflictions to resolve. That
is basic good manners as you don't hand over two conflicting aircraft -
you sort this out first. This can mean that aircraft get handed over at
many different positions and levels so there may not be an obvious
system to the pilots concerned.

Andy was probably doing OK on Tuesday night until he got his connection
chopped. After that it really does take a good controller to pick up the
pieces and I suspect that further aircraft checking on the frequency as
he was trying reconnect probably overloaded his capabilities. That's the
rub with ATC - you can't get behind the situation because you can never
catch up (not unless you tell everyone to pause) <g>..

Finally I have to admit that you have all been spoilt because I'm just a
brilliant controller.. (cough).. <vbg>

bones

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of gwinsk@xxxxxxx
> Sent: 04 August 2004 06:35
> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: FPI Session for Tuesday night
> 
> 
> Possibly my fault, for being ignorant of the correct 
> proceedure but the only ATC contact I 
> had was with Andy; just three times. He picked me up, as I 
> sat at Jersey, agreeing I call 
> him airborne.
> I called approaching UK airspace and was cleared to my Plan 
> FL 280. Thereafter, zilch. 
> I could hear the Dutch fliers being given descent 
> instructions, routeing to POL, then 
> instructions to change frequency to Manchester. Still sitting 
> at 280, at TNT, and having 
> heard Mike ask for permission to descend, I asked for 
> descent, giving my position. I was 
> cleared to 7000' but given no heading. Still passing through 
> 21,000' abeam Manchester, 
> I hadn't been directed to anywhere, or instructed to change 
> frequency. That was when 
> FS2002 locked up, with a Phone Home.
>  Questions. Should I have asked for descent earlier, or 
> waited for a descent instruction? 
> Should I have asked to be handed to Manchester? If I'd 
> contacted Manchester, without 
> being instructed, at approx 40 dme, I couldn't have got the 
> altitude off; complicated by 
> the Dutch being directed in the direction of down and asked 
> for minimum speed. It was disappointing to be existing in 
> splendid isolation, with so much traffic around. Also 
> to miss abeing handed to Manchester; though the lockup might 
> have prevented that, 
> anyway.
> Off to see if Autosave will allow me to complete and 
> experience your lousy weather 
> conditions. Look forward to the next session.
> 
> Gerry Winskill
> gwinsk@xxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> On 4 Aug 2004 at 1:47, Bones wrote:
> 
> > There were a few problems tonight, some technical and some 
> a result of 
> > the workload. I had one lockup and Andy did too - and he didn't 
> > return. After that the session flowed a lot better and it is a pity 
> > you didn't stick with it.
> > 
> > bones
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> > > gwinsk@xxxxxxx Sent: 03 August 2004 20:56 To:
> > > jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: FPI Session
> > > for Tuesday night
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Hi John,
> > > Sorry I didn't make it to Manchester. The machine locked up
> > > but I didn't bother to re 
> > > boot. About 20 miles E of EGCC, still at FL 210, after having 
> > > had to ask Andy for a 
> > > descent, heading for the frozen North and no sigh of 
> > > directions or handover, it didn't 
> > > seem worth the effort. I think Mike was having a similar problem.
> > > Will try when less busy.
> > > 
> > > Gerry Winskill
> > > gwinsk@xxxxxxx
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 2 Aug 2004 at 3:00, Bones wrote:
> > > 
> > > > The next FPI session will be on Tuesday night again from
> > > 1930 - 2200
> > > > local time (1830-2100Z).
> > > > 
> > > > I will open up Manchester Zone for the evening on 119.40.
> > > This gives a
> > > > good range of possibilities because the zone controller is
> > > responsible
> > > > for vectoring IFR aircraft into Manchester, Woodford, Liverpool 
> > > > and Hawarden. He can also provide a service for aircraft flying
> > > VFR into
> > > > these airports and for Barton and Woodvale. I might
> > > possibly be able
> > > > to stretch this list to Blackpool as well during 
> periods of light 
> > > > traffic.
> > > > 
> > > > The good thing about Tuesday is that the KLM VA have
> > > notified a UK fly
> > > > in that evening and we may see some nice mixed traffic
> > > around. Some of
> > > > these pilots may possibly opt for the London airports but I
> > > am hoping
> > > > the choice of Manchester may persuade a few to come northbound..
> > > > 
> > > > I'd like to see you all join I the session if possible. 
> It will be 
> > > > slightly different to last week if it gets busy because 
> I won't be 
> > > > able to zoom around the UK - I may have to keep the screen
> > > locked on
> > > > to the Manchester area. That means you will probably 
> run out of my 
> > > > radar cover if you are intending to venture far away and
> > > so, if this
> > > > happens, I may very well clear you to leave the frequency
> > > as you run
> > > > out of radar cover. After that, and assuming there are 
> no other UK 
> > > > controllers online, you can stay tuned to my frequency if
> > > you wish but
> > > > just carry on with your flight plan without making any
> > > further calls.
> > > > 
> > > > If you are flying into the Manchester area from 
> elsewhere in the 
> > > > UK then assume I won't see you if you are more than 40nm from 
> > > > EGCC. Connect to the server as normal and check for other UK 
> > > > controllers online. If there are then call these if you 
> think you 
> > > > are
> > > going to fly
> > > > in their area. If not then just taxi out and set course 
> as normal. 
> > > > Tune to my frequency and listen out. If I see you pop up on
> > > the radar
> > > > screen then I WILL CALL YOU. Once you reply I'll radar identify 
> > > > you and give you a radar service into your destination airfield.
> > > > 
> > > > Andy may log on as London Centre but he hasn't confirmed
> > > that yet. I
> > > > so it should give some variety for the IFR flights as they will 
> > > > get proper airways control. If I hear anything more 
> I'll let you 
> > > > know..
> > > > 
> > > > Any questions?
> > > > 
> > > > HC@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://fsaviation.net
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 


Other related posts: