[jhb_airlines] Re: FPI

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:07:51 +0100

No - not for the pilots but when we handover on intercom. Steve tends to do
this already as it's normal RAF procedure.

OTOH there is no reason why a pilot should not do the same for when a
controller is working alone. In this situation he has no means of finding
out if the aircraft targets are accurate or not.

Puzzling why Alex got so much lag and I didn't..


-----Original Message-----
From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
Sent: 06 October 2005 14:52
To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: FPI

Good idea, so it's "JHB X, at FL50 descending to 3000', IOM VOR DME 23",
or something?

Gerry Winskill

Bones wrote:

>I'm beginning to realise a couple of other things too. Alex was very
>late with the handovers as I mentioned last night - a couple of
>aircraft actually inside the zone before I got them and others not even
>starting descent as they reached VANIN. If Alex has very bad server lag
>then it's probable that, on his radar, you were all still halfway
>across the water.
>I think ATC will have to include a position check with the handovers in
>future just to ensure that lag isn't creeping up on us.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>Sent: 06 October 2005 08:38
>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: FPI
>I wasn't conscious of any server lag last night - but in retrospect,
>given the comments from Bones and Gerry, it may explain my airproxes
>with Alastair and Gerry.  I had assumed, perhaps uncharitably, that
>EGTT_CTR was a bit off-colour and had failed to spot these potential
>'incidents'.  On the first, I called ATC to report what I considered
>was going to be a close call (still > 10 nm separation, but closing
>fast) as I was cleared to climb through the approaching JHB180's FL.
>At the last minute Al was told to stop his climb and we probably just
>about achieved 1000 ft separation.  On the second occasion, I was just
>about to call with a similar concern over conflict with Gerry when
>EGTT_CTR called and told me to stop climbing immediately - again I
>think JHB067 and I were very close to minimum separation.  Phew ...
>Mike L
>>From: Gerry Winskill <gwinsk@xxxxxxx>
>>Date: 2005/10/06 Thu AM 08:21:24 BST
>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: FPI
>>Going around was good experience, apart from my not knowing whether to
>>call "Missed approach" or "Going around". Fortunately I usually reset
>>heading and altimeter bugs, once the ILS is captured, just in case. It
>>was made a bit difficult by the fact that, as with the other ATC
>>positions, I seemed to be not receiving the middle figure of each
>>requested heading, yet the sound wasn't distorted.
>>Apart from the quantity, plus not getting us handed over with
>>respectable separation, I'm sure that server lag must have been
>>compounding the problem. Also the volume of voice traffic. I'd have
>>been able to establish voice contact earlier but for the absence of
>>gaps into which I could jump. Another oddity last night, on my system,
>>was the fact that every time I double clicked on an ATC position, it
>>then switched to the position immediately below. I should have used
>>the GF kit but FPI hasn't been accepting its input on all flights,
>>recently.  Server lag was horrendous but in a very odd way. At
>>Aldergrove, Anthony's instructions indicated he wasn't suffering from
>>it. In my case, I had doubts about being turned onto finals ahead of
>>Alastair. He then announced he was on the blocks and leaving the
>>system. When I taxied in he was still showing up behind me, both on
>>the screen tags and using FSNav as TCAS. The latter produced a
>>dramatic density on approaching Ronaldsway. It was equally dramatic as
>>Mike and I closed, with only 500' separation, during my Aldergrove to
>>Leeds sector. When I looked out the window it looked more like 5'!!!
>>Very enjoyable evening.
>>Gerry Winskill
>>Bones wrote:
>>>I thought it quite a  good night last night with just a few niggles
>>>to take the edge off for some people. Not sure if this was just
>>>Ronaldsway or problems existed elsewhere! <g>
>>>Steve had a lockup just as his wheels got about an inch from the
>>>runway on touchdown - probably the most frustrating point of any
>>>flight to have FS bomb on you. Mike got a similar hang up just as he
>>>vacated the runway. I know Alex had severe lag on his PC about 45min
>>>into the session which put aircraft well behind their real positions
>>>- and could possibly account for the slight voice problems he was
>>>Despite all this I felt it was a good evening with Dave's idea of a
>>>set of in line airfields really cramming the aircraft along one
>>>route. The light winds at Ronaldsway also helped as it meant both 08
>>>and 26 could be used to expedite the traffic.
>>>The sudden flurry of arrivals at EGNS was very good - and it would
>>>have been nice to get everyone down first time around but that was
>>>not to be. Normally we get aircraft from Manchester quite early
>>>because it is only 8nm from VANIN to 26 approach - not much room to
>>>play with. I got everyone a bit later than I had hoped and so it was
>>>hard work for a short while, especially with two fast aircraft
>>>catching up two slow ones. It would have worked well too - if only I
>>>had remembered to drop JHB068 from FL50 to 3000ft for the ILS.
>>>Apologies to Gerry therefore as he had no chance to capture the ILS
>>>and, rightly, called a missed approach. I was annoyed about that.
>>>It's odd but this is a purely FPI situation that would not happen in
>>>real life. Inbounds to VANIN are normally dropped to FL50 and handed
>>>over to EGNS about ten miles to run. Manchester know this as it's
>>>part of the rules - aircraft having just 8nm to get from FL50 to
>>>3000ft to pick up the ILS. I got the aircraft later than expected and
>>>was trying my best not to give anyone a hold - but it rather
>>>unravelled on me.. <g>
>>>Again only a few non JHB aircraft were present - we seem to have lost
>>>our friends at EuroFly and German Airwings who really made the
>>>sessions a lot more interesting.
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