[jhb_airlines] Re: Christmas Present List

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:56:30 +0100

I'd agree with that. Looking at the log files that some of the geeks are
already pushing out there is enough data there to recreate the radar
picture. A small example of one of the published logs is:

4006C4 BAW239 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 1536 20:21:08
40088E BAW8087 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:20:08
4004ED BAW8088 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:52:42
394A65 BGA05TF 30,975 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 18:21:41
400833 BMA1QA 9,500 ft 383.8 kts 322.6° -2432 19:10:53
400831 BMA2EV 30,000 ft 429.8 kts 306.4° 0 20:17:43
4008DB BMA2LN 35,975 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:12:19
4008E6 BMA3WC 12,550 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:26:42
400B82 BMA5LJ 9,200 ft 433.4 kts 152.4° -2944 19:12:21
400A7D BMA677 14,625 ft 376.5 kts 147.9° -768 18:21:02
4007E5 BMA678 36,000 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 18:49:22
400973 BMA680 35,750 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:30:00
400793 BMA6EH 14,025 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:42:27
400718 BMA6XF 13,925 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:24:02
400792 BMA7853 33,000 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:30:30
400717 BMA7FP 28,025 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:22:51
400972 BMA7PK 13,000 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:23:57
4008E5 BMA96 28,000 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:41:58
400830 BMA9EV 30,000 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:11:55
400832 BMA9HY 30,000 ft 431.6 kts 332.5° 0 20:21:24
4005AD BMI5194 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 20:18:23
4009EF BMI5824 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° -320 19:16:12
40068C BRT3TF 950 ft 106.4 kts 323.0° -640 19:52:18
4006E6 BRT477 1,150 ft 120.1 kts 325.5° -640 19:36:13
400871 BRT4GW 1,075 ft 105.0 kts 323.1° -640 20:13:55
4008BB BRT529 11,325 ft 253.4 kts 310.0° -1728 20:08:08
40068D BRT59D 1,100 ft 116.3 kts 328.4° -832 20:22:44
4007B2 BRT5MD 1,025 ft 102.8 kts 322.9° -768 20:24:45
4007B1 BRT6EJ 21,800 ft 338.1 kts 342.8° 1408 20:25:27
4006A6 BRT983 20,200 ft 416.6 kts 144.0° 1088 19:40:00
400872 BRT9LC 13,700 ft 335.2 kts 136.0° -1856 20:29:46
4CC2AE BUURRBL 14,975 ft 354.5 kts 146.0° -960 19:46:52
4A81BB BY334A 35,000 ft 451.5 kts 201.2° 0 18:08:20
4D0158 CLX774 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:23:17
501CFD CTN505 31,975 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 0 19:02:40
4492E1 DAT19L 675 ft 118.2 kts 324.3° -768 19:48:45
4492E9 DAT37L 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 64 19:38:28
3C4B0E DLH1TY 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 1920 18:09:12
3C6643 DLH2PA 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° 1152 19:00:23
3C4B12 DLH2UM 0 ft 0.0 kts 0.0° -128 18:47:06

That one covers aircraft listing and isn't synchronous but others are - and
it just needs a fast feed to another user to port the data worldwide.

From Ramsey I'd guess that you could see all the southern Scottish traffic
as well as most aircraft going down the Amberway our rather fond (and
outdated) term for the DCS - POL route. My guess is that you might see
traffic around Manchester down to around 8500ft. The line of sight formula

1.25 x SQRT (Height)

so an aircraft at 8500ft will have a horizon of 115nm. It's North Barrule
that would limit your viewing towards Ronaldsway - you could roughly work
out the cutoff height by a simple elevation drawing to get the cut-off angle
between you and the hills and extend it southwards to see the projected
height at EGNS.



-----Original Message-----
From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
Sent: 05 August 2005 08:25
To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Christmas Present List

The other thing that's now struck me is the relevance of the
supplementarty kit, to allow networking. As you say, I wouldn't be able
to see a/c landing at Ronaldsway, though I assume I should be able to
see the higher level traffic, routing via the IOM. Likewise, I would see
nothing of Manchester traffic. If you, I and someone close to Ringway
had the same kit then I'm assuming that the network software, plus ADSL,
would allow each of us to select from one of the three sources. Does the
Forum seem to support this possibillity?

Gerry Winskill

Bones wrote:

>I particularly like the screenshot at
>http://www.kinetic-avionics.co.uk/images/Bscreen_shot.jpg - very
>artistic. Shows the rush into London with aircraft holding at OCK, BIG,
>MAY and MID.
>One thing worries me. Looking at the detail on the screenshot it would
>not be all that difficult, since it is showing real time data, for
>someone like me to give radar vectoring to an actual aircraft in
>flight. All the pilot needs is a mobile phone and I could talk him down
>to almost any airfield in the UK - and give him traffic information.
>Likewise, if he had the kit on board his aircraft, he could get a
>competent co-pilot to do the same thing.
>Now you may think that such use of this software would be unthinkable
>but I bet it will happen. You could set the kit up at a busy strip like
>Leicester or Earl's Colne and it would be very hard for someone not to
>use the data for traffic monitoring - and that is getting quite close
>to radar control. If a potential conflict exists and the ground person
>issues a suggested avoiding instruction then it IS radar control.
>The CAA would be hard pushed to try and stop this. I guess they could
>issue a edict saying that the software could not be used at any airport
>unless qualified personnel (a licensed radar controller) was approved
>and licensed for the operation of the software but that would be
>prohibitively expensive.
>Ignore my earlier comments as I have just been reading through the
>Kinetix web site forum. Their are some limitations on what this
>receiver can do. First the receiver works on direct signals only from
>aircraft so the radar picture you get will be just as with normal radar
>- limited to line of sight. This may not be too bad as one user in
>Bedford says he can see aircraft up as far as Manchester and down to
>the south coast but Gerry in Ramsey would not see aircraft land at
>Ronaldsway and I would not see aircraft going into Jurby/Andreas once
>they got below say 2000ft.
>Second is that the unit picks up the Transponder unit ident only and
>this needs converting to a registration. Data on screen for an aircraft
>3944F8 (AFR2268) 5634 143.3 497.4KTS 25025FT
>The first is the unique transponder ident for the aircraft. For Mode S
>transponders they should be unique to the aircraft - which means they
>can't be swapped into another airframe. The callsign here is AFR2268
>but the Reg isn't available - unless you have a list of the
>idents/registration sequence. Not all countries are giving this data
>out but the CAA are - the G-INFO pages now show idents for those
>aircraft they are issued to. For example FlyBe Dash8-400 G-JECH has a
>Mode S ID of 400C70 and Cessna 182 G-BJVH has an ID of 400C0B. The
>callsign too is user input and although AFR2208 is correct above SBS1
>users have reported seeing spurious entries such as HELLO, STUFFRYR and
>GETALIFE - the last on a military jet <vbg>..
>Although Mode S is operational with airlines it is currently in its ELS
>state (Elementary). There is also an EHS (Enhanced) state and full ADSB
>data streaming is only possible when an ADSB squitter is fitted. As one
>user excitedly said he got an ADSB signal from an aircraft I wonder if
>SBS1 does indeed pick up satellite data for those aircraft (very few
>right now) suitably equipped? ADSB trials took place in Alaska and
>Sweden so maybe a handful of SAS aircraft still have them.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
>Sent: 04 August 2005 20:25
>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Christmas Present List
>Wheneye spent my working days in the GCA caravan, the a/c had IFF but
>never switched it on. In those days it was thought of as being only
>what it said on the tin, "Identification Friend Or Foe". Since the Foe
>didn't get over mainland Britain, logic dictated it wasn't required
>inside the UK. Presumably they were assuming there would be no repeat
>of Pearl Harbour, that the Reds would play cricket and give sufficient
>notice that the IFF sets could be checked out before start of play.
>This current unit, now advertised in the GA mags and available from
>Transair, can be operated via a laptop and comes with cigar lighter
>plug. It's also available with software to permit networking, so that
>data may be passed around.
>What odds on the CAA trying to inhibit access by the aircraft
>enthusiast sector, at which it's partly aimed?
>Although GA aren't yet widely using mode S, aren't the heavy metal?
>Gerry Winskill
>Bones wrote:
>>Don't tempt me. It would be ironic getting this kit and seeing
>>aircraft on your PC years ahead of the CAA getting it installed!
>>ADSB will do the same for ATC as GPS did for pilots. GPS has made
>>VOR's and NDB's redundant and ADSB will make radar redundant. The
>>funny thing is that radar was a WW2 invention and ADSB is the ultimate
>>development of IFF - also introduced in WW2. ADSB will also give real
>>life ATC much the same as we have in FPI believe it or not - full
>>"radar" coverage at all heights and, almost, globally.
>>Primary radar works by firing a pulse out from the radar head and it
>>bouncing off the aircraft. The returned signal gives distance, bearing
>>and (in some cases) height information but just as a blip on the
>>screen. Secondary radar goes a bit better because the radar head fires
>>out a pulse that triggers the transponder in an aircraft and this
>>returns a coded pulse giving height data and the squawk. Coding in the
>>ground radar box of tricks converts this into a data tag with
>>callsign, speed etc. Put the wrong callsign in the computer next to a
>>squawk and the wrong callsign will appear on the tube! At least we
>>don't have to do this in FPI!
>>It didn't take long for someone to realise that these aircraft pulses
>>could be picked up by receivers other than an SSR radar head - and
>>this is how TCAS was born. Now the pulse is picked up by other
>>aircraft and the data used to provide warning information on aircraft
>>in close proximity - but it is still a short range facility.
>>ADSB goes the full step and does away with the ground radar. With an S
>>band Transponder much more data is sent by the aircraft - more than
>>current radars can use. In ADSB the aircraft pulse will be picked up
>>by satellite and from there beamed to Earth. That means anyone with an
>>ADSB receiver can pick up the data - much as GPS works. It means there
>>isn't a range limitation for the aircraft signal (it's not line of
>>sight any more) and you don't need a complex radar system to decode
>>the data. A simple receiver with a PC will do.
>>S band transponders are required to be fitted to GA aircraft in the UK
>>by March 2005 and by all aircraft by March 2008. The first requirement
>>has already been knocked on the head as the GA community argued
>>(rightly) that the CAA won't have any S band decoding receivers for
>>another two years. In truth the CAA is in a pickle because it really
>>doesn't have a firm plan for implementing ADSB yet. I guess they still
>>can't accept that all their new Swanwick radar tubes are going to be
>>ripped out and replaced by PC's. <vbg>
>>In the meantime we can get this receiver, plug it into out PC and it
>>will start picking up the satellite data. Think of all the airports
>>without radar that could benefit from this idea - just a receiver and
>>a PC (CAA approved of course) and they could be in business. Aircraft
>>fitted with ADSB receivers will be able to see a radar picture of
>>other aircraft hundreds of miles away rather than the limited TCAS
>>line of sight range. ADSB will determine conflictions when aircraft
>>are still hundreds of miles apart. Airport vehicles fitted with a Mode
>>S transponder will also show on the radar and ADSB can warn a pilot if
>>a vehicle is on a runway.
>>It's the future now - but the technology has caught people out. The
>>system is up and running but neither aircraft or ATC have actually
>>made serious moves to get the equipment installed. It seems odd that
>>if I got this software I could probably see Irish Sea traffic (only
>>Mode S equipped
>>though) as good as Ronaldsway - and with a portable VHF radio I could
>>take over <vbg>.. Thinks - will this mean controllers working from
>>home in future? Set up the receiver at the airport and feed it to a
>>local network and I could plug into it with my PDA.. <g>
>>There are so few aircraft with Mode S right now that it wouldn't be a
>>good buy. In a couple of years though I bet the costs will be down and
>>it might be very tempting. make it portable like a GPS receiver and I
>>could take it in the aircraft (or car) too!
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
>>Sent: 04 August 2005 16:29
>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Christmas Present List
>>All putting this on our list, or saving our pennies, are we?
>>Only £499.95.
>>Gerry Winskill

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