[jhb_airlines] Re: B350

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:18:42 +0100

More data for you now - direct from a B350 driver.

Power levers. These alter the power of the engine much as a throttle does
but the power output is displayed as torque rather than manifold pressure.
Turboprops are easily overboosted so the essential task is to contain the
power and not blow up the engine - which you would certainly do if you
banged the levers fully forward. On take off torque should be set to 97% but
it needs watching because as speed increases the ram air through the engine
will increase the torque. Therefore, on take off and climb the power levers
should be constantly adjusted to contain the increasing torque.

Power levers should also have two detents. The first is for zero thrust to
avoid taxying at high speeds and the next detent moves the props into beta
range for reverse. I guess from what's been said that FS doesn't emulate
this behaviour.

Prop levers. Much like the prop levers on a piston aircraft but they operate
at much lower rpm's. A King Air 200 should climb at 1900rpm and cruise at
1700rpm. The King Air 350 has much larger props and only needs 1600 for the
climb and 1400 in the cruise.

Condition Levers. Probably the most misunderstood. Basically they are a fuel
cock and should be used to turn the fuel on or off. On starting you move the
levers from CutOff to Flight Idle and leave them there. There are only two
times you need to move them into High Idle. First is on approach to a small
strip if reverse thrust is needed. High Idle keeps the engine rpm high (not
the prop rpm) so that reverse thrust is immediate when selected. If you stay
on Low Idle the engine rpm decays as you close the power levers and the
engines then have to spool up again on selecting reverse - this can take
some time and reverse doesn't really start biting until the power is back up
again.

High idle is also used when starting the aircraft on internal power. Once
the first engine is fired up you move it into High Idle to provide enough
generator power (high engine rpm) to start the second and this saves two
full battery starts. The odd thing here is that after both engines are
running you have one lever at High Idle and one at Low Idle but this isn't
really an issue as thrust is still governed by prop rpm. 

The important thing to remember about the King Air (and any other PT6
engined aircraft) is that it is a free turbine engine. That means the prop
isn't directly connected to the engine itself. The exhaust from the engine
passes through a free turbine stage and it is this which is connected to the
prop. In other words you can hold onto the prop when starting the engine and
it won't turn. In fact a Hercules has a prop brake and this is engaged on
start up - C130 engines reach full power on startup and it is only when the
brake is released that the prop starts turning.

If you can think in terms of prop rpm being governed by the Prop Lever and
engine rpm being governed by the Power lever you are on your way to
understanding turboprops.

Bones
bones@xxxxxxx
http://woodair.net


-----Original Message-----
From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fred Stopforth
Sent: 19 August 2008 17:15
To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350

Thanks for the info, will have another go onthe same route with increased 
v/s from 1000 to2000 rpm,reduce revs to 1500 and go Fl250.It'll be 
interesting to see how high I get it up in 15mins.  Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350


> 207 gallons for 2.16hrs is a tad high and you should be able to shave some
> off with better engine management. Here's a quote from a B350 flight 
> report:
>
> "Initial climb rate topped 2,000 fpm, and in 15 minutes the 350 was level 
> at
> 27,000 feet, despite air temperatures at least 9º F above standard all
the
> way up. The high 20s are good altitudes for the 350 because it cruises 
> right
> around 300 knots true airspeed with a fuel flow of about 650 pounds per
> hour. The mid-to-high 20s are not crowded altitudes, and the tanks' full
> range at maximum power is at least 1,000 nm with enough reserves to 
> continue
> to an alternate 100 nm from the destination.
>
> Except for takeoff, all climb and cruise is conducted with the propellers
> set at a slow 1500 rpm. At that setting you are aware of the props in the
> cockpit, but in the aft club chairs the sound could be as easily coming 
> from
> a jet engine as a turboprop. And the vibration level compares very
> favourably with a business jet."
>
> So it looks like you need to get those props back further to 1500rpm which
> is lower than the B200 series. You also need to respect torque limits but 
> I
> don't know if FS publishes these. On take off throttles are advanced to
> torque limit only in real life - but there again engines don't blow up in 
> FS
> and it's a shame because users don't learn any respect for correct 
> settings.
>
> Just two more figures for you to digest taken from the King Air manual.
>
> FL240, 312kts -fuel flow 128usg
> FL330, 237kts - fuel flow 61usg.
>
> That is why most King Air operators stay around the 250kt level - it keeps
> fuel costs down a lot.
>
> bones
> bones@xxxxxxx
> http://woodair.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fred Stopforth
> Sent: 19 August 2008 15:45
> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>
> Did my return flight BIRK--> EKVG.Dist covered with Go Round 504 nm / fuel
> 207 Gals  / GS 232 Knts  / Start to Blocks 2hrs:10mins / ITT 700 /Torq 75 
> /
>
> Prop rev 1600  /Gas rev90  /  fuel flow 40+  /oil 45  press125 . fuel 
> loaded
>
> 359 Gals + 6 pass. Default BE350. Saitek Cyborg J/stick used .Yoke and
> Pedals boxed till cockpit room is done.At least I got my fuel quantity 
> down
> a bit and shifted a bit quicker trying at Fl210. Knackered now ready for a
> glass of wine.  Fred
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
> To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:22 PM
> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>
>
>> What would be interesting is for several pilots to fly an identical route
>> using identical values and then compare times and fuel burn afterwards.
>> For
>> this to work everyone would have to start off with the same fuel load and
>> pax load so that AUW is identical and fly an identical route. Differences
>> would then show up purely through handling and engine management.
>>
>> To get up to FL250 for a reasonable time a sector length of about 300nm
>> would be about right -just over an hour's flight. An example would be
>> Southampton to Campbeltown via BCN WAL IOM and BLACA. As I don't have FS
>> running I can't suggest nominal power settings but Condition levers 
>> should
>> be at Flight Idle and Props at 1700rpm. Ideally power should be set to
>> produce a TAS of 250kts which would probably be about 170kts IAS.
>>
>> bones
>> bones@xxxxxxx
>> http://woodair.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fred Stopforth
>> Sent: 19 August 2008 08:27
>> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>
>> Ah will try that altitude on the way back and see what I report.This
>> exercise is giving me a little interest. Thanks. Fred
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
>> To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:09 AM
>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>
>>
>>> Normal cruising altitude for a King Air is FL250 or thereabouts and the
>>> fuel
>>> burn drops off significantly at that height.
>>>
>>> bones
>>> bones@xxxxxxx
>>> http://woodair.net
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fred Stopforth
>>> Sent: 19 August 2008 01:22
>>> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>>
>>> Hi Frank thought I would have a go at your EKVG --> BIRK  IFR and see
>>> what
>>> the comparison might be. Here's my report --  covered 525nm /used 230
>>> gals
>>
>>> /
>>>
>>> GS 217knts / Start to shutdown 2hrs 25 mins.  Cond 45% /Props 60% /Throt
>>> 85/99% //Prop revs were 1600.Just wondered how we compared in our flight
>>> effort.BTW I went to 12500'.  Fred
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "F FISHER" <ffisher991@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:27 PM
>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>>
>>>
>>>> Like Gerry says, it is going to be a case of a lot of trials and
>>>> paperwork.
>>>>
>>>> Just taken off from Vagar on route Rek online.
>>>>
>>>> All levers full on in climb, used 110G!! (start 417)speed 210 IAS
>>>>
>>>> Power back to 85 % torque(75%) speed 210 still FF 5.TAS(per FSC)261.
>>>>
>>>> Have altered FSC database to show cruise speed 215 range 1000, the FP
>>>> distance is 417 time 2hours.
>>>>
>>>> We will see what time I arrive.
>>>>
>>>> But still gobbling up fuel!!
>>>>
>>>> Frank F
>>>>
>>>> Ps off to bathroom, back in 15 minutes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:48 PM
>>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's NOT a mixture lever Frank. Mixture levers only exist on pistons.
>>>>> It's a
>>>>> Condition lever and it's not got anything to do with fuel flow. It 
>>>>> only
>>>>> has
>>>>> High Idle (used for reverse thrust) Low Idle (used for everything 
>>>>> else)
>>>>> and
>>>>> Cut Off positions. You can waggle it about all you want in flight but
>>>>> it
>>>>> won't do anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fuel flow on a turboprop is automatically metered and controlled by
>>>>> Power
>>>>> and Prop levers settings. If you are burning too much fuel it's 
>>>>> because
>>>>> you
>>>>> are using the wrong Power or Prop values.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've said before a turboprop is a JET engine and it works exactly
>>>>> the
>>>>> same way. Jets don't have mixture either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bones
>>>>> bones@xxxxxxx
>>>>> http://woodair.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of F FISHER
>>>>> Sent: 18 August 2008 19:22
>>>>> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>>>>
>>>>> This is why I am altering the FSC database to suit.
>>>>>
>>>>> The B350 has 3 sets of levers all Black
>>>>>
>>>>> My physical layout is the Saitek Yoke with twin throttles, 3 levers on
>>>>> each(Black Blue and Red)
>>>>>
>>>>> The mixture lever(Red) alters the fuel flow not by much but is around
>>>>> 5,
>>>>> I
>>>>> alter the power and condition levers to keep under the red line at
>>>>> about
>>>>> 75%. Closing the Mixture lever completely, cuts the engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> I bring the mix control down during the climb to 25% at FL100
>>>>>
>>>>> Max climb is about 160, and cruise 210, totally different to the FSC
>>>>> database. With a tail wind, this will go up to about 230, at FL150.
>>>>>
>>>>> FSC bases it flight time and distance according to it's database which
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>>
>>>>> mind is not accurate.Someone needs to do some research.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have yet to find an FS aircraft that performs to stated spec.As far
>>>>> as
>>>>> FSC
>>>>>
>>>>> is concerned anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even in formation, I have to max the power to match other online
>>>>> flyers.
>>>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>> that is another issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other issue I have to sort out is the v.high taxi speed, but I
>>>>> think
>>>>> this is something to do with the condition lever, normally keeping the
>>>>> speed
>>>>>
>>>>> down with the brakes and also steering with the brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the aircraft, but do need to learn how to use it to best
>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank F
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 5:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: B350
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> FSC has the distance a bit wrong - it's just 801nm direct. It's got
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> range totally wrong too - a King Air can't stay up for 16 hours
>>>>>> (4100/250).
>>>>>> Just over 1000nm with no reserves would be a better figure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The King Air doesn't have a mixture control (no turboprops do). They
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> Power, Prop and Condition levers so I can't guess what levers you are
>>>>>> referring to. Fuel flow rate is determined by the power and prop
>>>>>> settings
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> you may need to check these to stop drinking too much of the
>>>>>> stuff -props
>>>>>> need only be around 1700-1900. The condition levers only have High
>>>>>> Idle,
>>>>>> Low
>>>>>> Idle and Cutoff positions and you never touch these after engines are
>>>>>> started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bones
>>>>>> bones@xxxxxxx
>>>>>> http://woodair.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of F FISHER
>>>>>> Sent: 18 August 2008 16:35
>>>>>> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: [jhb_airlines] B350
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beech King Air 350.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently doing a run from EGNS-BIRK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FSC states distance 881nm 2:52mins at cruise speed 512kts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am set with Mixture at 25%, condition at 75% power 75%.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KIAS on FSX 260kts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 220 nm short of ING, now right turn 90 for Vagar to refuel as down to
>>>>>> 100G
>>>>>> from 425G
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am in the proces of realtering the aircraft database in FSC to
>>>>>> reflect
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the true air speed I am attaining, this should give me a truer flight
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FSC aircraft database  gives a range of 4100nm, no way, with full
>>>>>> tanks
>>>>>> should I have to divert, am I doing something wrong??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or should Ibe flying something with a higher range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank F
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 18/08/2008
>>>>>
>>>>>> 06:51
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date:
>>>>> 18/08/2008 06:51
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>>> 5:39 PM
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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