[jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:30:35 +0100

I don't have any values for the CJ2 here and it could easily have different
flap settings to the CJ1. The existing aircraft.cfg values are 0, 15 and 45
as you note and would seem to follow the current trend on some aircraft of
absolute minimum flap settings (up, take off and land).

The CJ1 I've had the pleasure to fly in is different and it has flap values
of 0, 15, 35 and 50. Here are the book figures:

T/0 Weight    15 deg Flap Setting   0 deg Flap Setting
                 V1  Vr  V2            V1  Vr  V2
10600           107 107 111           113 113 119
10000           102 103 108           109 109 115
9500             98 100 105           105 105 113
9000             97  97 103           102 102 110
8500             97  97 103            98  98 107
8000             97  97 104            98  98 107
7000             97  98 106            98  98 109

Stall Speeds

Zero Angle of Bank, Landing Gear UP or Down, KCAS
              Flap Position
Weight     Land   15deg    UP
10600       86      91     98
10000       83      89     95
9500        81      87     93
9000        79      85     91
8500        77      82     88
8000        75      80     86
7500        73      78     83
7000        70      75     80

Take-Off 0 and 15 degs flaps
Landing Approach 15 degrees
Full Flaps Land 35 degrees
On Landing Flaps 50 degrees...used to help braking

Note that 50 flap is only used as an after landing speed brake so we really
only need 0, 15 and 35 in FS. However that is for the CJ1 and as there are
so many versions of the Citation out now (which I have totally lost track
of) it could well be that other versions have different flap settings. The
Citation X is quite a different beast to the little CJ1!

Also note that in the CJ1 figures above the Max Landing Weight is just
10600lb whilst the CJ2 is up at 15200lb. I would therefore expect the speeds
to be a touch higher. For the CJ1 a rotate speed of about 105/115kts seems
average and an approach speed of 106kts at max weight looks good (as Va = Vs
x 1.23). I'll hunt around and see if I can find the CJ2 figures but expect
them to be a touch higher than these.

You can easily alter the aircraft.cfg values if you wish. As a reminder put
the original values in the comment section so you remember them - they can
go anywhere after the // symbols. Just out of interest did it say which
variant of Citation the panel was for?


-----Original Message-----
From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
Sent: 17 October 2005 12:29
To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem


I was trying to find out what flap settings exist on the real-world
Citation.  If there are 4 (0, 5, 15, 35), as the panel I am now using
would seem to suggest, can I modify the current entry in aircraft.cfg -

type             = 1          // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard    = 0.8        // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time   = 5          // seconds
system_type      = 0
flaps-position.0 = 0          // degrees
flaps-position.1 = 15          // degrees
flaps-position.2 = 45         // degrees
damaging-speed   = 250        // KIAS
blowout-speed    = 300        // KIAS

by inserting an additional line for flaps 5, and amending flaps 45 to
flaps 35?  Or is such tinkering another minefield .... ?

Mike L

Bones wrote:
> The problem with designing a flap gauge is that you have to specify
> the number of indents. No problem if it matches the aircraft's cfg
> file but it produces oddities when the aircraft has different
> settings. What I think happens is that the aircraft.cfg values are
> read by FS. In this case you will have one redundant flap position
> which you might reasonably assume comes at the end of flap selection.
> This sometimes isn't the case so it may be best to check visually..
> I had this situation on another aircraft when trying to adapt a non
> standard panel. Flaps 1 worked OK, Flaps 2 did nothing, Flaps 3 and 4
> worked fine. I just had to remember that I had to press the button
> twice for second stage flaps.
> When a mismatch like this happens you can easily change the
> aircraft.cfg to get flap selection to match the lever but this is
> usually incorrect. It's better to get the flap lever to match the
> aircraft but this is not an option on old GAU files and a tad messy
> with XML.
> bones
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
> Sent: 16 October 2005 21:51
> To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
> I have installed a different panel for the Citation (2k4citxp.zip from
> Avsim) which looks a bit less of a jumble and seems to work OK with
> FS2002.  No problems with APPR_HOLD or autothrottle.  It does appear a
> tad blurry mind you ... not just my eyesight either.
> I notice that it shows 4 flap settings (0, 5, 15, 35), although
> aircraft.cfg has only 3 settings (0, 15, 45).  What should it be?
> Mike L
> Bones wrote:
>>What a strange panel.
>>I remember it now, one of many I've tried and dumped in the past. This
>>one proves that if you have a very good panel for an aircraft you
>>think the aircraft itself flies nicely and if you have a bad panel the
>>aircraft is rubbish. I had no problems with the Citation at all until
>>I attached this panel to it. I've flown it around for a couple of
>>hours now and didn't enjoy much of it at all.
>>The panel itself is a strange mixture of good and bad. It's got a lot
>>of GAU files but there are several XML's in there too. What I don't
>>understand is that one of the XML CAB files it uses has 84 switches in
>>it (including all the autopilot functions) but he's only borrowing two
>>switches from this file and ignoring the rest. The autopilot switches
>>he has chosen are separate GAU files and are not quite standard - they
>>do slightly odd things.
>>The APPR button worked for me, both on the GF unit and selecting it on
>>the aircraft panel. The Speed button seems OK'ish too but it's a
>>cobbled thing - it acts as both AP_AUTOTHROTTLE engage and AP_IAS_HOLD
>>in one unit. No separate Autothrottle arming switch. Bad news is that
>>it sometimes doesn't disengage when you deselect it and it's usually
>>too late when you find this out.
>>Other oddities are the GPU/APU as the aircraft is BAT start or GPU
>>only. In fact you can start this aircraft without using the APU at all
>>so it's only there for show. Bottom left switches work OK but the
>>labels are very poor on the bottom row.
>>It's a very messy layout which leaves you hunting all over the place
>>for familiar switches and dials. Some dials (like RAD ALT and ELEV
>>TRIM) are huge whilst other essential instruments are far too small to
>>be read easily. Some dials are quite sophisticated, like the standby
>>horizon and other border on the crude - the ALT SEL thing on the panel
>>looks like a rubber grommet to me.
>>Flying tests proved something of a trial as I was trying to understand
>>aircraft responses as well as hunt around this panel for data. I found
>>faults with both the aircraft and the panel though. Aircraft first...
>>This isn't a jumbo - it's a very nippy little jet - so you have to
>>revise your thinking about climbout procedures. Set about +60 trim and
>>apply full throttle. When you hit 100kts pull the nose up to 25
>>degrees on the horizon (I can tell you this doesn't feel natural as
>>you think you will stall but PULL THAT STICK BACK!). Get the gear up
>>(don't use flaps) and trim for 25 degrees. At this pitch the aircraft
>>will settle into an 1800fpm climb at around 150kts. Keep checking the
>>nose and don't let it drop until you have the AP set up and on. Don't
>>forget that the C550 doesn't have any slats or other fancy lift
>>devices that add both lift AND drag to the bigger jets so it is going
>>to take off like a scalded cat. You have to contain this.
>>Round for the first ILS and the APPR mode captured the ILS first time.
>>The approach seemed normal until about 4nm out and then the aircraft
>>just dropped off the glideslope and started a rapid sink earthwards.
>>This was at 120kts so it was well above stall so I climbed away for
>>some handling. In manual flight it would happily fly round at 100kts
>>flaps up without batting an eyelid and a little bit slower with flaps
>>down. Get below these speeds though and the drag rises rapidly - if
>>you check a slight loss of height by pulling the stick back even very
>>slightly the speed winds off very fast indeed. I flew 100kt circuits
>>without any problem at all so I tried a second ILS. Again the thing
>>was fine at more than 120kts but as soon as I brought it even one knot
>>lower it quit the glideslope capture. I've seen other aircraft do this
>>too so I'm not sure what is going on. I'll try the ILS on the normal
>>panel I use and see if it is any different. I could be panel related
>>or it may be a drag/autothrottle mismatch.
>>Just after that it locked up my GF_MCP readouts totally - although the
>>dials still worked.
>>Differential roll I have sorted out. The aircraft still has an FS2002
>>.air file and it's missing quite few entries for FS2004. As soon as I
>>entered values for tables 342 and 518 it started to behave properly.
>>I'll do the same for elevator and rudder next.
>>Actually I won't go on any more as I'll just rip the panel to pieces
>>and it doesn't really deserve it. Some bits are very good but they are
>>spoiled by tacky, mickey mouse dials alongside. The engine gauges are
>>good (a pity you can see the sky behind them as he hasn't quite got
>>the fit right) as are the annunciator lights above. The main EHSI is
>>too small, too cluttered and very bad to read. The autopilot switches
>>are all over the place (the original isn't too good either but it's
>>not THAT bad). A good rebuild might see it much improved but that
>>would be a reasonably long job.
>>I just tried an ILS with a second panel and the same drop below the
>>ILS happened when speed got below 121 kts so it must be an automatic
>>decouple for some reason. It's usual for this to happen near the stall
>>but this is excessive for this aircraft. Daft thing is that you can
>>switch off the autopilot and fly quite happily manually for the rest
>>of the approach..
>>Must investigate further.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>Sent: 15 October 2005 16:57
>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>Thanks for the offer, John.  Remember that I use FS2002 so it could be
>>that the panel (cessna_citation_ii_v2.zip from Avsim) - which is
>>listed for FS2004 - won't work properly with FS2002.  Having said
>>that, the aircraft itself is listed as FS2004 but it seems fine in
>>Mike L
>>Bones wrote:
>>>Give me the name of this panel and I'll download it and have a hunt
>>>around. If the autopilot is an XML file I should be able to track
>>>down why the APPR button isn't working. OTOH if it's and old GAU file
>>>then that's beyond my abilities as I have no C++ skills.
>>>I've built an autopilot for the Aztec and the code is very simple. An
>>>APPR button isn't very hard to do so I could probably add this to the
>>>Citation if the original is faulty.
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>Sent: 15 October 2005 12:48
>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>Thanks for this info, and your other reply on gauge design.  I have
>>>no desire to enter a minefield ....
>>>I may try a different panel with the Citation and see if I can get
>>>APPR_HOLD to work.
>>>Think I've got the AP autothrottle and IAS hold sussed now ... <g>
>>>Mike L
>>>Bones wrote:
>>>>You are walking into a minefield here Mike so it may be best to
>>>>leave well alone. I don't know anything about the panel you got for
>>>>the C550 but it would need a much closer look at the gauges supplied
>>>>to see what was included in the package and what was not.
>>>>The gauge line you quote doesn't mean a lot to me as I don't have a
>>>>fsd_generic.ap.appr.gau (it could be a CAB file too). It becomes
>>>>tricky because just because the line is in the panel.cfg file it
>>>>doesn't automatically mean the gauge itself is in your gauges
>>>>folder. Although likely I can't even say this is an APPR hold
>>>>function either. It's unusual if it is because ALL the autopilot
>>>>functions are normally contained in a single autopilot gauge.
>>>>The FS command AP_IAS_HOLD is a different beast to AP_AUTOTHROTTLE.
>>>>If you set a P8 button for the latter then (assuming the aircraft is
>>>>fitted with an AP and AT in the aircraft.cfg file) you have access
>>>>to speed control - it is, effectively, the Autothrottle Arm
>>>>The AP_IAS_HOLD function is the same as the IAS button on the
>>>>autopilot panel on most aircraft. This is an engage/disengage button
>>>>but it has no effect if the Autothrottle isn't armed in the first
>>>>place. You don't need to allocate this button to a P8 switch because
>>>>it should already be programmed into the HOLD button below the
>>>>IAS/Mach rotary switch on your MCP. It's the same as the NAV and HDG
>>>>hold buttons alongside - press to engage or disengage.
>>>>So, what you should really have is the AP_IAS_HOLD command set to
>>>>the HOLD button below the IAS/Mach panel on the MCP. On the P8 you
>>>>allocate a button for the AP_AUTOTHROTTLE function. When flying the
>>>>aircraft you hit the P8 to arm the autothrottle, dial in a speed you
>>>>want and then press the HOLD button to engage.
>>>>You can mostly ignore the reference speeds in the aircraft.cfg as
>>>>they are only used in one of the FS menus - I think Weight and
>>>>Balance. They have absolutely no effect on the sim itself. The
>>>>speeds are actually the wrong way round but they are correct - the
>>>>Citation has a very low stall speed. It was intentionally designed
>>>>for slow flight as it gave the aircraft the ability to operate out
>>>>of very short strips - something no other jet is capable of. It was
>>>>an impressive feat by Cessna as the aircraft doesn't have any
>>>>complex wing devices at all, but there again it is quite a light
>>>>What is good about the Citation is that at 100kts the aircraft still
>>>>has excellent roll rate. It is a very nice aircraft indeed for a
>>>>pilot and doesn't really deserve its "toy jet" title from the
>>>>Lear/Falcon brigade.
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>>Sent: 14 October 2005 19:29
>>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>>I'm afraid I don't know what it is I'm looking for in the panel and
>>>>aircraft.cfg files ...
>>>>Panel.cfg contains the line -
>>>>gauge37=fsd_generic.ap.appr,  213,517,20,23
>>>>which suggests to me that there should be a working APPR_HOLD
>>>>As regards the GoFlight autothrottle, I have disabled the "arm when
>>>>CMD is activated" option.  But I cannot get the IAS/Mach hold to
>>>>from a P8 button.  The appropriate P8 light comes on but it doesn't
>>>>activate the IAS/Mach hold (yes, I have designated the correct
>>>>function in GF config).  I can only get IAS/Mach hold to work using
>>>>Ctrl+R.  Any ideas??
>>>>Going back to the Cessna Citation specifically, I found the
>>>>following in aircraft.cfg -
>>>>[Reference Speeds]
>>>>flaps_up_stall_speed=77.0      //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>full_flaps_stall_speed=80.0    //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>cruise_speed=262.0              //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>Surely flaps up stall speed should be higher than full flaps stall
>>>>speed?? - and I would have expected both to be 100+ kts.
>>>>Mike L
>>>>Bones wrote:
>>>>>First thing to suspect is the panel because it suggests the
>>>>>autopilot gauge it uses may not be working properly. If it works in
>>>>>other aircraft but not the C550 then it may be the interaction
>>>>>between the panel and the aircraft.cfg file. In my copy both the
>>>>>autopilot and autothrottle are flagged as available.
>>>>>Check the MCP options in the GF Module. You should have two radio
>>>>>buttons which enable/disable autothrottle with AP activation. I
>>>>>don't actually use this myself as there are times when I want to
>>>>>keep AT active when flying manually and so I have one of the T8
>>>>>switches set for AT engage/disengage. This works perfectly well.
>>>>>The command you want is called AP_AUTOTHROTTLE.
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>>>Sent: 14 October 2005 16:09
>>>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>>>For one sector of my FPI session on Wed evening I flew the Cessna
>>>>>Citation by VENEAVIONES in JHB livery, with panel by Brian
>>>>>Williams. Unfortunately, I discovered that APPR HOLD didn't work
>>>>>(at EGTE). Can someone with more expertise than me in this area
>>>>>tell me if this is a problem somewhere in one of the config files
>>>>>(aircraft.cfg or
>>>>>panel.cfg?) that can be easily fixed?
>>>>>Still coming to terms with the new GoFlight autopilot module, in
>>>>>particular the apparent lack of an autothrottle arm switch.  Only
>>>>>an IAS/Mach Hold and although I have configured one of my P8
>>>>>buttons as A/Thr Arm it doesn't seem to activate and I have to
>>>>>resort to Ctr+R
>>>>>- which rather defeats the purpose of this all-singing, all-dancing
>>>>>autopilot module (I can even get BBC2 on it .... <g>)
>>>>>Mike L

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