[jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem

  • From: "Bones" <bones@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:45:26 +0100

True, but with a bit of subtle image manipulation it could be possible to
add depth to a gauge. I've tried this but you need to be very careful - it
doesn't take much to kill the illusion completely.

First thing is to add a bit of darkness to one edge of the dial to simulate
a shadow - the longer this is the deeper the gauge is recessed. Next task is
to apply a mask to simulate the glass face of the dial. If we could apply
Alpha to one layer only then making this glass mask slightly reflective
would be a real bonus.

The disadvantage of this is that you have to apply the same shadow and mask
to all nearby instruments so that the effect is continued across the panel.
If not the illusion is broken..

Reminds me of the house in England somewhere in which someone has painted a
violin on the wooden panelling at the end of a corridor. It is only when you
get within a few feet of it that you realise it isn't a genuine instrument..

bones

-----Original Message-----
From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
Sent: 16 October 2005 18:25
To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem


Comparing your shots with any decent panel brings home how little the FS
panels have advanced. They may have all the right instruments ion all
the right places but, compared to the real panel, they look totally flat
and two dimensional. A classic case is the FS9 Cessna 550's engine
intruments. There is absolutely no sense of depth. Each scale seems to
be at the surface. The real gauges have the faces set back below glass.
Only the modern glass instruments get close to the real thing.

Gerry Winskill


Bones wrote:

>Yep - all the pictures are on the Photography page.
>
>bones
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
>Sent: 15 October 2005 19:35
>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>
>
>Is there a shot on your website, of the 550 in which you had a couple
>of jaunts? Grinds teeth loudly.
>
>Gerry Winskill
>
>Bones wrote:
>
>
>
>>It sounds almost as if you are talking about a totally different
>>aircraft to the one I fly! The C550 flown manually is a real softy and
>>I can fly visual circuits in it without any problem. As mentioned on
>>the web page I did increase aileron authority a bit because roll rate
>>was awful but I have otherwise made no tweaks.
>>
>>The other comments you make seem more related to the autopilot
>>functions but I will test my version again to make sure. I've not had
>>any problems so far capturing speed or the glidepath.
>>
>>I might just delve into the .air file because I agree that rolling
>>left seems faster than rolling right. This may be due to incorrect
>>values for the aileron ratios.
>>
>>bones
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerry Winskill
>>Sent: 15 October 2005 17:52
>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>
>>
>>I've downloaded tis aircraft, used the FS Panel Studio panel ant tried
>>a flight. Only two comments. I think it may be a bit overpowered,
>>since AutoThrottle couldn't reduce sufficiently quickly to stop it
>>exceeding 240 kias, in the initial climb. Approaching IOM, it captured
>>the Localiser very efficiently, usin APPR.  From then on it was
>>downhill. When it caught the Localiser, still below the Glideslope,
>>and with Alt Hold still selected, it started to descend, rapidly, from
>>the setting of 2500'. It's not the only a/c to do this. No idea why.
>>Things then got worse. I tried to fly the ILS manually. Maintaining GS
>>was no problem. The Localiser was a different matter, since at what I
>>thought was a high finals speed of 120 kias, any turn to the right
>>needed full right ailerond AND full right rudder pedal. Once the speed
>>was taken to about 130, full aileron authority returned though, unlike
>>the real aircraft, it still needed full deflection to initiate turns.
>>
>>Gerry Winskill
>>
>>gwinsk@xxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>
>>Bones wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Give me the name of this panel and I'll download it and have a hunt
>>>around. If the autopilot is an XML file I should be able to track
>>>down why the APPR button isn't working. OTOH if it's and old GAU file
>>>then that's beyond my abilities as I have no C++ skills.
>>>
>>>I've built an autopilot for the Aztec and the code is very simple. An
>>>APPR button isn't very hard to do so I could probably add this to the
>>>Citation if the original is faulty.
>>>
>>>bones
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>Sent: 15 October 2005 12:48
>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>
>>>
>>>bones
>>>
>>>Thanks for this info, and your other reply on gauge design.  I have
>>>no desire to enter a minefield ....
>>>
>>>I may try a different panel with the Citation and see if I can get
>>>APPR_HOLD to work.
>>>
>>>Think I've got the AP autothrottle and IAS hold sussed now ... <g>
>>>
>>>Mike L
>>>
>>>Bones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are walking into a minefield here Mike so it may be best to
>>>>leave well alone. I don't know anything about the panel you got for
>>>>the C550 but it would need a much closer look at the gauges supplied
>>>>to see what was included in the package and what was not.
>>>>
>>>>The gauge line you quote doesn't mean a lot to me as I don't have a
>>>>fsd_generic.ap.appr.gau (it could be a CAB file too). It becomes
>>>>tricky because just because the line is in the panel.cfg file it
>>>>doesn't automatically mean the gauge itself is in your gauges
>>>>folder. Although likely I can't even say this is an APPR hold
>>>>function either. It's unusual if it is because ALL the autopilot
>>>>functions are normally contained in a single autopilot gauge.
>>>>
>>>>The FS command AP_IAS_HOLD is a different beast to AP_AUTOTHROTTLE.
>>>>If you set a P8 button for the latter then (assuming the aircraft is
>>>>fitted with an AP and AT in the aircraft.cfg file) you have access
>>>>to speed control - it is, effectively, the Autothrottle Arm
>>>>function.
>>>>
>>>>The AP_IAS_HOLD function is the same as the IAS button on the
>>>>autopilot panel on most aircraft. This is an engage/disengage button
>>>>but it has no effect if the Autothrottle isn't armed in the first
>>>>place. You don't need to allocate this button to a P8 switch because
>>>>it should already be programmed into the HOLD button below the
>>>>IAS/Mach rotary switch on your MCP. It's the same as the NAV and HDG
>>>>hold buttons alongside - press to engage or disengage.
>>>>
>>>>So, what you should really have is the AP_IAS_HOLD command set to
>>>>the HOLD button below the IAS/Mach panel on the MCP. On the P8 you
>>>>allocate a button for the AP_AUTOTHROTTLE function. When flying the
>>>>aircraft you hit the P8 to arm the autothrottle, dial in a speed you
>>>>want and then press the HOLD button to engage.
>>>>
>>>>You can mostly ignore the reference speeds in the aircraft.cfg as
>>>>they are only used in one of the FS menus - I think Weight and
>>>>Balance. They have absolutely no effect on the sim itself. The
>>>>speeds are actually the wrong way round but they are correct - the
>>>>Citation has a very low stall speed. It was intentionally designed
>>>>for slow flight as it gave the aircraft the ability to operate out
>>>>of very short strips - something no other jet is capable of. It was
>>>>an impressive feat by Cessna as the aircraft doesn't have any
>>>>complex wing devices at all, but there again it is quite a light
>>>>aircraft.
>>>>
>>>>What is good about the Citation is that at 100kts the aircraft still
>>>>has excellent roll rate. It is a very nice aircraft indeed for a
>>>>pilot and doesn't really deserve its "toy jet" title from the
>>>>Lear/Falcon brigade.
>>>>
>>>>bones
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>>Sent: 14 October 2005 19:29
>>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Re: Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>bones
>>>>
>>>>I'm afraid I don't know what it is I'm looking for in the panel and
>>>>aircraft.cfg files ...
>>>>
>>>>Panel.cfg contains the line -
>>>>
>>>>gauge37=fsd_generic.ap.appr,  213,517,20,23
>>>>
>>>>which suggests to me that there should be a working APPR_HOLD
>>>>function.
>>>>
>>>>As regards the GoFlight autothrottle, I have disabled the "arm when
>>>>CMD is activated" option.  But I cannot get the IAS/Mach hold to
>>>>work
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>from a P8 button.  The appropriate P8 light comes on but it doesn't
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>activate the IAS/Mach hold (yes, I have designated the correct
>>>>function in GF config).  I can only get IAS/Mach hold to work using
>>>>Ctrl+R.  Any ideas??
>>>>
>>>>Going back to the Cessna Citation specifically, I found the
>>>>following in aircraft.cfg -
>>>>
>>>>[Reference Speeds]
>>>>flaps_up_stall_speed=77.0      //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>full_flaps_stall_speed=80.0    //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>cruise_speed=262.0              //Knots True (KTAS)
>>>>max_indicated_speed=350.453125
>>>>max_mach=0.75
>>>>
>>>>Surely flaps up stall speed should be higher than full flaps stall
>>>>speed?? - and I would have expected both to be 100+ kts.
>>>>
>>>>Confused.
>>>>
>>>>Mike L
>>>>
>>>>Bones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>First thing to suspect is the panel because it suggests the
>>>>>autopilot gauge it uses may not be working properly. If it works in
>>>>>other aircraft but not the C550 then it may be the interaction
>>>>>between the panel and the aircraft.cfg file. In my copy both the
>>>>>autopilot and autothrottle are flagged as available.
>>>>>
>>>>>Check the MCP options in the GF Module. You should have two radio
>>>>>buttons which enable/disable autothrottle with AP activation. I
>>>>>don't actually use this myself as there are times when I want to
>>>>>keep AT active when flying manually and so I have one of the T8
>>>>>switches set for AT engage/disengage. This works perfectly well.
>>>>>The command you want is called AP_AUTOTHROTTLE.
>>>>>
>>>>>bones
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>[mailto:jhb_airlines-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Lucas
>>>>>Sent: 14 October 2005 16:09
>>>>>To: jhb_airlines@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>Subject: [jhb_airlines] Autopilot APPR HOLD problem
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>For one sector of my FPI session on Wed evening I flew the Cessna
>>>>>Citation by VENEAVIONES in JHB livery, with panel by Brian
>>>>>Williams. Unfortunately, I discovered that APPR HOLD didn't work
>>>>>(at EGTE). Can someone with more expertise than me in this area
>>>>>tell me if this is a problem somewhere in one of the config files
>>>>>(aircraft.cfg or
>>>>>panel.cfg?) that can be easily fixed?
>>>>>
>>>>>Still coming to terms with the new GoFlight autopilot module, in
>>>>>particular the apparent lack of an autothrottle arm switch.  Only
>>>>>an IAS/Mach Hold and although I have configured one of my P8
>>>>>buttons as A/Thr Arm it doesn't seem to activate and I have to
>>>>>resort to Ctr+R
>>>>>- which rather defeats the purpose of this all-singing, all-dancing
>>>>>autopilot module (I can even get BBC2 on it .... <g>)
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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