Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
- From: "Michael Capelle" <michaelcapelle@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:03:57 -0600
Hello there, i tried this last night, when i woke up this morning after
about seven hours later, it was still whiping free space, is this normal?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
> Hi Angel;
>
> Yes, you're right, some applications do give you the choice of what to
> wipe,
> some just wipe the free space.
>
> It's unfortunate that you lost a couple of authorisation keys. I think it
> comes down to how the file is stored in the file allocation table. I
> think
> it's stored in such a way, that the system thinks the files actually been
> deleted, and thus the space occupied by the key can be overwritten. I
> think
> this is why the advice is to remove an authorisation key prior to doing
> disk
> operations such as defrag, or Norton's Speed Disk. These defragmentation
> utilities copy data on the hard drive to areas of the hard drive where
> data
> can be written to, rearrange it into continuous files, and then write it
> back. So, the area of the drive occupied by the authorisation key risks
> being written to. So, I think good advice would be to remove the
> authorisation key prior to doing any hard drive operations, such as
> defragmenting or wiping free space.
>
> The major concern isn't with people finding out you're a software pirate,
> but with them accessing data personal to you. This could be bank details,
> account information, phone numbers, email addresses, postal addresses,
> pretty much anything. Pretty much everyone will store at least some of
> this
> on their hard drives, and it's not the sort of information I would imagine
> people want getting into the hands of people who will do whatever they
> feel
> like with it.
>
> Will Pearson
> Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer/VC++)
> For mor information on the Microsoft MVP Program, go to:
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:00 AM
> Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>
>
>> I think you can choose what you want wiped. I haven't used it in a while
>> since I lost a couple jaws keys because of it. I do nothing illegal so I
> am
>> not afraid of what anyone finds on my computer after I have deleted in
>> the
>> ordinary way.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Capelle" <michaelcapelle@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>>
>>
>> > But if I use nortons whipe info, and select drive c:\, won't that whipe
> it
>> > where it will not boot, meaning it will delete all my info.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:43 PM
>> > Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>> >
>> >
>> > >I wiped my hard drive a couple of times with Norton's utility and my
> jaws
>> > > key was destroyed. Why was this. I don't wipe anymore.
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:26 AM
>> > > Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Hi;
>> > >>
>> > >> Firstly, these sort of programs don't wipe a whole hard drive. The
>> only
>> > > way
>> > >> to do that is to format the hard drive, or nuke the sectors of the
>> > >> HD
>> > >> containing the file allocation table, which will leave the data on
> the
>> > > drive
>> > >> but render the drive inoperable, as the O/S won't know which drive
>> > >> sectors
>> > >> to read in order to get the file data. Instead, what they do is to
>> wipe
>> > > all
>> > >> sectors of a hard drive that once contained data but that have been
>> > > flagged
>> > >> in the file allocation table as being available to be overwritten.
>> This
>> > >> will mean that all files that haven't been deleted won't be
>> > >> affected,
>> > >> however those that have been deleted will have the space they once
>> > > occupied
>> > >> on the hard drive overwritten with garbage. This will render it
>> > > impossible
>> > >> to recover the data that these files contained.
>> > >>
>> > >> As you cite a process running within the shell of the O/S, this
>> shouldn't
>> > > be
>> > >> a problem. All processes, and any threads they create run in
>> > >> logical
>> > >> storage, or memory. Once you load a program it's code is
> automatically
>> > >> transferred to memory, where it's executed until the application
> quits,
>> > >> crashes, etc. and the program is unloaded from memory, and all
>> > >> memory
>> is
>> > >> returned to the available pool of memory, unless there's been any
>> memory
>> > >> leaks, in which case some but not all will be returned.
>> > >>
>> > >> What you may be trying to infer, is that Windows is a dynamic
> operating
>> > >> system, which loads bits in to memory from the hard drive as they
>> > >> are
>> > >> required. As these drive cleaning programs don't touch files that
>> exist,
>> > >> including the memory swap file, any operating system files won't be
>> > >> interfered with by this category of application. So, Windows will
>> still
>> > > be
>> > >> able to load components in as it needs them, although it's
>> > >> worthwhile
>> not
>> > >> using any other applications whilst using a drive cleaning program,
> as
>> > > these
>> > >> may create tempory files that may not get cleaned.
>> > >>
>> > >> So, Windows won't be damaged, nor fall over, as a result of using a
>> drive
>> > >> cleaning program. It's sole purpose is to wipe areas of a hard
>> > >> drive
>> > > where
>> > >> files once resided but where they reside no more, not to wipe
>> everything
>> > > off
>> > >> a hard drive. If you want to completely wipe a hard drive, and
> aren't
>> a
>> > >> programmer, the only way you can do this is to exit to DOS, as DOS
>> > >> completely resides in memory, and format the hard drive.
>> > >>
>> > >> Will Pearson
>> > >> Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer/VC++)
>> > >> For more information on the Microsoft MVP Program, go to:
>> > >> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@xxxxxxxx>
>> > >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:59 PM
>> > >> Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > Perhaps the website explains this, but how do you use this program
> to
>> > >> clean a
>> > >> > drive when you have to have a process running in an operating
> system
>> to
>> > >> make it
>> > >> > work.
>> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> > From: "red" <red2003@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 12:31 PM
>> > >> > Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws & DriveScrubber
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Hi
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > http://www.iolo.com/ds/
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > DriveScrubber allows you to safely pass-on your hard drives,
>> > >> > > safe
>> in
>> > > the
>> > >> > > knowledge that your personal data is 100% gone, and your data
>> > > completely
>> > >> > > destroyed. Best of all, DriveScrubber is quick and simple to
>> > >> > > use,
>> and
>> > >> works
>> > >> > > with any PC, regardless of the drive's format
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > DriveScrubber is a utility designed to securely wipe all data
> from
>> > >> > > any
>> > >> hard
>> > >> > > or floppy drive, regardless of its file format or operating
> system.
>> > > Its
>> > >> > > purpose is to ensure the safety, privacy, and security of
> private,
>> > >> > > personal, confidential, or proprietary information.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Once a drive has been wiped with DriveScrubber, no attempts
>> > > (regardless
>> > >> of
>> > >> > > their level of sophistication) will be able to recover any data
>> that
>> > >> > > previously existed thereon.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Good Luck
>> > >> > > preston
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > At 05:13 PM 05/12/2004, you wrote:
>> > >> > > >Hi Will, I just want to say thanks for all the information that
>> you
>> > >> alway
>> > >> > > >post. Unlike some people who a lot of times leave one line
>> answers.
>> > >> > > >I
>> > >> really
>> > >> > > >like all the information that you give. I save your posts so I
> can
>> > >> refer to
>> > >> > > >it when need be. I like to learn as much as I can. Keep those
>> > >> informative
>> > >> > > >posts coming!
>> > >> > > >----- Original Message -----
>> > >> > > >From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > >To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > >Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 6:37 AM
>> > >> > > >Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > Hi;
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > I think it's probably the authorisation key that you are
>> thinking
>> > >> of. The
>> > >> > > > > authorisation key is located in the jfw.cps folder in the
> root
>> of
>> > >> drive
>> > >> > > > > c:.
>> > >> > > > > The key is the file named jfw.cps within this folder. The
>> > >> > > > > folder,
>> > >> and
>> > >> > > > > presumably the file, have both the hidden and system file
>> > > attributes
>> > >> set,
>> > >> > > > > so
>> > >> > > > > you will have to select to view system files from within the
>> > > folder
>> > >> > > > > options
>> > >> > > > > multi page dialog.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > If someone's removed the authorisation key using hjauth, and
>> > >> uninstalled
>> > >> > > > > JAWS using the uninstall scripts for InstallShield and they
>> have
>> > >> problems
>> > >> > > > > reinstalling, then it would make me suspicious of a silent
>> > > failiure
>> > >> in one
>> > >> > > > > of the uninstallation routines. By a silent failiure, I
>> > >> > > > > mean
>> > >> > > > > that
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > > uninstaller has encountered a problem uninstalling something
>> and
>> > > not
>> > >> told
>> > >> > > > > the user about it. The uninstaller may have tried to
>> > >> > > > > correct
>> the
>> > >> problem,
>> > >> > > > > it may not have, it may have crashed out with an unhandled
>> > >> exception, or
>> > >> > > > > whatever, it's up to the programmer's, in this case those
>> > >> > > > > for
>> > >> > > > > InstallShield,
>> > >> > > > > as to how they handle these situations. Under normal
>> operations
>> > >> > > > > everything
>> > >> > > > > should install and uninstall fine, however, if a system
>> develops
>> > >> "system
>> > >> > > > > rot", which it will do over time, then you can notice
> problems
>> > > both
>> > >> with
>> > >> > > > > installation and uninstallation of software, as well as
>> operation
>> > > of
>> > >> > > > > software. Some registry keys and values can go awry, files
> on
>> > >> > > > > the
>> > >> hard
>> > >> > > > > drive can be corrupted, and settings go wrong. This can
>> > >> > > > > mean
>> > >> > > > > that
>> > >> an
>> > >> > > > > uninstaller that works fine under normal conditions will
>> develop
>> > >> proglems
>> > >> > > > > under systems with "system rot", likely leaving components
>> > > installed
>> > >> that
>> > >> > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > otherwise would have removed. Software developers can't do
>> > > anything
>> > >> about
>> > >> > > > > this really, as the problems depend on what has gone rotten
>> > >> > > > > within
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > > system, something that varies with each instance of "system
>> rot".
>> > >> So, if
>> > >> > > > > you notice uninstallers not removing components, including
>> > > registry
>> > >> > > > > values,
>> > >> > > > > which you think they should have, uninstallers developing
>> > >> > > > > problems
>> > >> or
>> > >> > > > > hangs
>> > >> > > > > during uninstallation, or abnormal execution of the
>> > >> > > > > software,
>> > >> > > > > then
>> > >> it
>> > >> > > > > might
>> > >> > > > > be time to consider formatting the hard drive and starting
>> again.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > These are exceptional circumstances, but are circumstances
> that
>> > >> occur from
>> > >> > > > > time to time, and all software packages can be affected, not
>> just
>> > >> JAWS.
>> > >> > > > > If
>> > >> > > > > you frequently install and uninstall software, not
> necessarily
>> > >> > > > > the
>> > >> same
>> > >> > > > > package as different packages are likely to cause it just as
>> > >> > > > > much,
>> > >> then
>> > >> > > > > this
>> > >> > > > > can increase the risk of "system rot". Equally, software
> that
>> > >> > > > > has
>> > >> had a
>> > >> > > > > modified installation routine, such as pirated and illegal
>> > > software,
>> > >> will
>> > >> > > > > significantly increase the risk of "system rot" and things
> not
>> > >> working
>> > >> > > > > properly.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > Will Pearson
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer/VC++)
>> > >> > > > > For more information about the MVP program, go to:
>> > >> > > > > http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
>> > >> > > > > ------ Original Message -----
>> > >> > > > > From: "chevelle" <chevelle33@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:14 PM
>> > >> > > > > Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >> Hi Will, there was a thread on this subject. From time to
> time
>> > > for
>> > >> what
>> > >> > > > > ever
>> > >> > > > >> reason, someone would uninstall Jaws. Then they would try
>> > >> > > > >> to
>> > >> reinstall
>> > >> > > > > jaws,
>> > >> > > > >> and try to authorize it. They would get a message saying
> that
>> > > they
>> > >> all
>> > >> > > > > ready
>> > >> > > > >> had an existing copy of jaws on the hard drive. Debbie
> Scales
>> at
>> > >> one time
>> > >> > > > >> posted the name of the file, and where to go to delete it,
> but
>> I
>> > >> can't
>> > >> > > > > find
>> > >> > > > >> that post. That is why I am wanting to know how to
> completely
>> > >> remove
>> > >> > > > >> Jaws
>> > >> > > > >> from the computer. btw thanks for all that info.
>> > >> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> > > > >> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 12:33 PM
>> > >> > > > >> Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> > Hi;
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > JAWS has one of the better set of uninstallation scripts
>> > > around.
>> > >> Some
>> > >> > > > >> > uninstallers do leave keys and values in the registry
>> > >> > > > >> > that
>> > > will,
>> > >> in all
>> > >> > > > >> > likelyhood, cause abnormal software operation under some
>> > >> circumstances,
>> > >> > > > >> > however, the keys and values that JAWS leaves behind,
>> > >> > > > >> > some
>> of
>> > >> which are
>> > >> > > > >> > auto
>> > >> > > > >> > generated by Windows, won't cause abnormal software
>> operation.
>> > >> So,
>> > >> > > > > unless
>> > >> > > > >> > you really know what you are doing when editing a
> registry,
>> I
>> > >> would
>> > >> > > > > leave
>> > >> > > > >> > them in there, as editing the wrong keys and values will
>> cause
>> > >> your
>> > >> > > > > system
>> > >> > > > >> > to develop unexpected behaviour, and wil probably require
>> you
>> > > to
>> > >> format
>> > >> > > > >> > your
>> > >> > > > >> > hard drive and start again.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Whilst uninstallation of any software is an important
> aspect
>> > > when
>> > >> > > > >> > transferring machines between owners, so as to remain
> within
>> > > the
>> > >> > > > >> > conditions
>> > >> > > > >> > defined in the individual EULAs for each piece of
> software,
>> > >> security of
>> > >> > > > >> > personal data should also be considered. When you delete
>> > > files,
>> > >> such
>> > >> > > > >> > as
>> > >> > > > >> > those in My Documents, they're not actually deleted, even
>> when
>> > >> you
>> > >> > > > >> > empty
>> > >> > > > >> > the
>> > >> > > > >> > Recycle Bin. The 1's and 0's that represent the data on
> the
>> > > hard
>> > >> drive
>> > >> > > > >> > are
>> > >> > > > >> > still present, and all that happens is that the file name
> in
>> > > the
>> > >> file
>> > >> > > > >> > allocation table changes to indicate that the sectors
>> > > previously
>> > >> > > > > occupied
>> > >> > > > >> > by
>> > >> > > > >> > that file can be written to once more. Therefore, if
>> someone
>> > >> were to
>> > >> > > > > come
>> > >> > > > >> > along with an unerase tool, such as Unerase Wizard from
>> > > Symantec,
>> > >> they
>> > >> > > > >> > could
>> > >> > > > >> > recover those files without too many problems. The only
> way
>> > >> > > > >> > to
>> > >> ensure
>> > >> > > > >> > this
>> > >> > > > >> > doesn't happen, is to overwrite those sectors of the hard
>> > > drive.
>> > >> This
>> > >> > > > >> > happens quite a lot in normal use, where you're deleting
>> files
>> > >> and then
>> > >> > > > >> > overwriting that space with new files, but if you're
>> deleting
>> > >> files
>> > >> > > > > prior
>> > >> > > > >> > to
>> > >> > > > >> > handing the machine over, then these new files are
> unlikely
>> to
>> > > be
>> > >> > > > > created
>> > >> > > > >> > and there's nothing to overwrite the old data on the hard
>> > > drive.
>> > >> > > > > There's
>> > >> > > > >> > two ways to get around this. Firstly, you can format the
>> hard
>> > >> drive
>> > >> > > > >> > and
>> > >> > > > >> > reinstall Windows and all the necessary device drivers,
>> > >> > > > >> > or
>> you
>> > >> can use
>> > >> > > > >> > a
>> > >> > > > >> > tool such as WipeInfo, which is part of Norton Utilities
>> from
>> > >> Symantec,
>> > >> > > > > to
>> > >> > > > >> > write a set of 1's and 0's to the free space on your hard
>> > > drive,
>> > >> > > > >> > overwriting
>> > >> > > > >> > all that personal data with garbage.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > It's certainly something worth considering, and not
>> something
>> > >> > > > >> > a
>> > >> lot of
>> > >> > > > >> > people are aware of, as recently highlighted on BBC
>> Breakfast
>> > >> News,
>> > >> > > > >> > when
>> > >> > > > >> > they ran a piece on a report highlighting this security
>> > >> vulnerability
>> > >> > > > >> > in
>> > >> > > > >> > businesses.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Will
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer/VC++)
>> > >> > > > >> > For more information on the MVP Program, go to:
>> > >> > > > >> > http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
>> > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> > > > >> > From: "chevelle" <chevelle33@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:06 PM
>> > >> > > > >> > Subject: Re: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> No, I am not talking about removal of the authorizaation
>> key.
>> > > I
>> > >> am
>> > >> > > > >> >> talking
>> > >> > > > >> >> about complete removal of Jaws from the hard drive. Even
> if
>> > > you
>> > >> > > > > uninstall
>> > >> > > > >> >> jaws from the add/remove I believe there is still
> something
>> > >> related to
>> > >> > > > >> > jaws
>> > >> > > > >> >> in the registery.
>> > >> > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> > > > >> >> From: "Horspool, Matthew F." <drjaws@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> > > > >> >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 3:11 AM
>> > >> > > > >> >> Subject: RE: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > > >> >>
>> > >> > > > >> >>
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Hi:
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > At a guess I would say he means the Authorization key
> as
>> > >> during an
>> > >> > > > >> >> > uninstall JAWS does not request a removal of the
>> > > authorization
>> > >> key.
>> > >> > > > > If
>> > >> > > > >> >> > anyone can say differently, please speak up!
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > You can find authorization information in a file
>> > >> > > > >> >> > called
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Quella authorization key guide.txt
>> > >> > > > >> >> > If you are using JAWS 4.51 and below, the file is
> called
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Authorization key guide.txt
>> > >> > > > >> >> > I think 3.5 and below called it
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Authoriz.txt
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Or something like that. I can't be certain.
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > HTH,
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Matthew
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > -------------------------
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Mr. Matthew F. Horspool
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Send me an Electronic Mail to
>> > >> > > > >> >> > drjaws@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Add
>> > >> > > > >> >> > horspool@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> > to your MSN contact list
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Or Visit my web site at
>> > >> > > > >> >> > http://www.horspool.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>> > >> > > > >> >> > -------------------------
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> > >> > > > >> >> > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Behalf Of chevelle
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:09 AM
>> > >> > > > >> >> > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Subject: completely uninstalling jaws
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Hi, after you uninstall jaws from the add/remove or
> from
>> > >> > > > >> >> > the
>> > >> tools
>> > >> > > > >> >> > options of jaws. I think someone on this list said to
>> > >> completely
>> > >> > > > > remove
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Jaws you have to remove something from the registery.
> Is
>> > > that
>> > >> right?
>> > >> > > > > If
>> > >> > > > >> >> > so what do you remove from the registery to completely
>> > > remove
>> > >> jaws
>> > >> > > > > from
>> > >> > > > >> >> > the hard drive. Thanks.
>> > >> > > > >> >> > --
>> > >> > > > >> >> > To post a message to the list, send it to
>> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
> to
>> > >> > > > >> >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
>> the
>> > >> subject
>> > >> > > > >> >> > line.
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Archives located at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received
>> from
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > >> >> > list,
>> > >> > > > >> >> > or
>> > >> > > > >> >> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
>> > >> > > > >> >> > list.
>> > >> Rather
>> > >> > > > >> >> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > --
>> > >> > > > >> >> > To post a message to the list, send it to
>> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
> to
>> > >> > > > >> >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
>> the
>> > >> subject
>> > >> > > > >> >> > line.
>> > >> > > > >> >> > Archives located at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >> >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received
>> from
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > >> >> > list,
>> > >> > > > >> >> > or
>> > >> > > > >> >> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
>> > >> > > > >> >> > list.
>> > >> Rather
>> > >> > > > >> >> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >>
>> > >> > > > >> >> --
>> > >> > > > >> >> To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > > > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
>> > >> > > > >> > the
>> > >> subject
>> > >> > > > >> > line.
>> > >> > > > >> >> Archives located at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >> >>
>> > >> > > > >> >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received
> from
>> > > the
>> > >> list,
>> > >> > > > > or
>> > >> > > > >> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
> list.
>> > >> Rather
>> > >> > > > >> > contact
>> > >> > > > >> > the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> >>
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > --
>> > >> > > > >> > To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > > > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
>> > >> > > > >> > the
>> > >> subject
>> > >> > > > >> > line.
>> > >> > > > >> > Archives located at:
>> > >> > > > >> > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received
> from
>> > >> > > > >> > the
>> > >> list,
>> > >> > > > >> > or
>> > >> > > > >> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
> list.
>> > >> Rather
>> > >> > > > >> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> --
>> > >> > > > >> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>> > >> > > > > subject
>> > >> line.
>> > >> > > > >> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from
>> the
>> > >> list, or
>> > >> > > > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
>> > > Rather
>> > >> > > > > contact
>> > >> > > > > the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > --
>> > >> > > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>> > >> > > > > subject
>> > >> line.
>> > >> > > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from
> the
>> > >> list, or
>> > >> > > > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
>> > > Rather
>> > >> > > > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >--
>> > >> > > >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > > >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
>> > >> line.
>> > >> > > >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > >> > > >list,
>> > >> or
>> > >> > > >the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
>> Rather
>> > >> > > >contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > --
>> > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>> > >> > line.
>> > >> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> list,
>> > > or
>> > >> the
>> > >> > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> contact
>> > >> the list
>> > >> > owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > >> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>> line.
>> > >> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >> >
>> > >> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
> list,
>> > >> > or
>> > >> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > > contact
>> > >> the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
>> > >> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >>
>> > >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > >> list,
>> or
>> > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > > contact
>> > > the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
>> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> > >
>> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
> or
>> > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > --
>> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >
>> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
>> > or
>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact
>> the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> --
>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>
>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact
> the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>
>
> --
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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