Update: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
- From: "Greg Epley" <gregepley@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:23:17 -0600
Hi,
As of today I have done the following, mostly trying to isolate software
differences between my working Dell and the problem HP:
-disabled the HP Quick Launch Buttons app to keep it from running (registry
modification).
-uninstalled iTunes (which was never on the Dell system).
-uninstalled QuickTime (also never on the Dell system).
-uninstalled J2RE (also never on the Dell system).
-uninstalled Zone.com Games (never on the Dell)
So far, in several runs, trying to really go at the HP system and force it
to seize up, it has not seized up on me yet, which is a good sign. I am
cautiously optimistic that I have made some progress, but will believe it
when it proves to be consistent, or at least relatively so.
I am noticing now that, when on a web page in IE, and I need to route the
JAWS cursor to a link in order to right click on it, the screen reads as
only seeing the title bar, toolbar buttons, address bar, and then the status
line. There is no evidence of seeing any of the web page through the JAWS
cursor, and I've tried multiple sites with the same result.
I had a similar problem to this on the Dell until I was finally able to
track down and install updated video drivers for the integrated video in the
Dell, so I'm suspecting the same thing here. What any of the software I
uninstalled or disabled has to do with this current issue is beyond me. I
did do the complete uninstall of Quicktime (which is not recommended, due to
the system extensions), but wanted a "clean" system. Perhaps that pulled
something out.
I cannot say for sure and certain that the JAWS cursor did work correctly
before this, as I've gone back and forth between the HP and Dell for so many
days, trying to get productive work done on my old Dell while trying to
diagnose the HP, that I perhaps am mistaken and was never able to use the
JAWS cursor correctly on web pages on the HP. I will need to investigate
that more and see if I can figure that out. I am having absolutely no luck
finding the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M drivers or software on the HP web
site; all that shows for my model HP is for an ATI card, not an NVIDIA card.
Tried everything short of contacting HP which is what I'm likely going to
have to do.
Once I can get the JAWS cursor problem resolved in IE I plan to re-enable
the Quick Launch Buttons and run awhile to see if the problem returns. The
reason I never used J2RE on the Dell was because everytime I tried to
install that on the Dell, some weird problem began to occur - a strange
crash, freeze, or malfunction of some sort. I finally gave up on J2RE; the
only reason I had it on the HP was because HP put it there, most likely
because of the Zone.com Games also preinstalled on the system.
I will pass along more info when it becomes available. BTW thanks to
everyone who's responded; I learned a long time ago that when one is very
close to a problem, particularly when it's as frustrating as this one, it's
often hard to see very obvious solutions or things to try - so again, thanks
to all who've responded, and I'll post more when I have more.
-Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> hi, greg,
> do you have a copy of another screen reader such as window eyes? if you
> do then you could try running that instead of jawsand see whether the
> problem occurs.
>
> Pranav
> on Tuesday 3/15/2005 08:16 PM, Greg Epley said:
> Hi Chip,
> I did consider doing that but unfortunately my routine work requires
> screen
>
> reading more advanced than Narrator can provide. Basically I wouldn't get
> much done and the whole effort would just be a waste of several hours
> time,
>
> assuming I could even find enough to do for that long using Narrator.
> Unfortunately, due to the numerous problems I've encountered with FS over
> the years, and based on over 22 years of computer experience, JAWS is
> still
>
> the culprit here; it may be that something else is upseting JAWS, but
> sometimes one software can upset another because one or both aren't
> written
>
> properly. It is a known fact that FS still has many bugs in JAWS that are
> there mostly because they were left to fester for so long. As a software
> developer myself, I fix the problems as soon as I can, which has always
> worked best. FS, of course, is bending to marketing and business
> practices,
> but in the end they choose to do that. In the end, it may proove out that
> JAWS isn't any of the problem here, but for now I must stick with my
> original gut feelings on this and move on from there.
> -Greg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:01 AM
> Subject: RE: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
>
>
> > Could you make do by using the narrator for a few days instead of jaws
> > to see if it's really jaws at fault?
> >
> >
> >
> > Chip Orange
> > Database Administrator
> > Florida Public Service Commission
> >
> > Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > (850) 413-6314
> >
> > =20
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Epley
> >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 8:52 PM
> >> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> >>=20
> >> Hi,
> >> I have looked at the Event logs you mention, and will do so=20
> >> again, and pass along anything to the list that looks=20
> >> suspicious. As I recall, there was nothing shown as Error or=20
> >> Warning, but it's always possible I just overlooked it by=20
> >> accident due to the frustration of this problem, so I will=20
> >> try again after a freeze.
> >>=20
> >> There really isn't anything HP running on this laptop, at=20
> >> least not in the background or at startup, other than an app=20
> >> called QuickLaunch buttons".=20
> >> Otherwise there is nothing - Antivirus or spyware detection=20
> >> or anything else in the background - that isn't also running=20
> >> on the Dell laptop. That is the reason I felt JAWS had to be=20
> >> at fault. I will try to disable the Quicklaunch buttons app=20
> >> and see how things go, but if it still freezes then, there is=20
> >> little likelyhood that the root of the problem isn't JAWS.
> >>=20
> >> I talked to my wife about using the machine some without JAWS=20
> >> on it, but it will be at least a few days before we can run=20
> >> that trial, and then about all she will be able to do is=20
> >> browse the internet and run whatever she can find to kill=20
> >> time on it, as it's not her regular machine and so doesn't=20
> >> have all her software on it, but we'll give this a try just=20
> >> the same and pass the results on to the list.
> >> -Greg
> >>=20
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 4:28 PM
> >> Subject: RE: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> > Ok, your first and best resource is the system error log. =20
> >> Have a look
> >> > at it by going into control panel and choosing=20
> >> administrative tools. In
> >> > there, choose the event viewer (do this immediately after recovering
> >> > from one of your freezes). The event viewer gives you access to 3
> >> > different system logs, but the security one is never of any=20
> >> help. Check
> >> > the application and system logs for any entries (from the=20
> >> top downwards)
> >> > that say warning or error beside them. Go into that entry, find the
> >> > details edit box, and copy the info into an email to the=20
> >> list and/or FS.
> >> >
> >> > Hopefully there will be something in there to look at other than
> >> > ordinary information entries.
> >> >
> >> > Btw, why do you think the cause is jaws? There's probably a lot of
> >> > other software running on that pc, including some added by HP, and
> >> > perhaps anti-virus etc. added by you. Have you had a sighted person
> >> > work with it as much as you have, and had no errors when=20
> >> they weren't
> >> > using jaws? That would be about the only reason to really=20
> >> suspect jaws
> >> > as the cause.
> >> >
> >> > Hth,
> >> >
> >> > Chip
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chip Orange
> >> > Database Administrator
> >> > Florida Public Service Commission
> >> >
> >> > Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > (850) 413-6314
> >> >
> >> > =3D20
> >> >
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20
> >> >> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Epley
> >> >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:42 PM
> >> >> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> Subject: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Hello,
> >> >> Before I describe the problem I'm having with a new laptop=3D20
> >> >> system and JAWS, here is the currently working laptop system=3D20
> >> >> for your reference:
> >> >> JAWS 5.10.383
> >> >> Windows XP Home Edition, SP2
> >> >> Dell Inspiron 4000
> >> >> Intel Pentium III 900MHz
> >> >> 512Mb RAM
> >> >> ATI Rage Mobility M3
> >> >> ESS Maestro PCI Audio
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> And here is the new laptop system that the problem is occuring on:
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> JAWS 5.10.383
> >> >> Windows XP Home Edition, SP2
> >> >> HP Pavilion ZV5210US
> >> >> AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3000+
> >> >> 512Mb RAM
> >> >> NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M
> >> >> SoundMAX Digital Audio
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Again, the software above has all been running fine on the=3D20
> >> >> Dell mentioned above; I am also using the same speech synth=3D20
> >> >> on the HP as the Dell, but have tried using Elloquence and=3D20
> >> >> had the same problem.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I thought perhaps someone here on the list might know of what=3D20
> >> >> is causing the conflict as the FS support database mentions=3D20
> >> >> no conflicts with the exact hardware components on the HP=3D20
> >> >> system, or that perhaps someone had this same system and=3D20
> >> >> could help me troubleshoot the issue.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I haven't contacted FS yet about this problem because I have=3D20
> >> >> no control over who responds to the support request, and I=3D20
> >> >> need someone I can count on who can get to the crux of the=3D20
> >> >> problem and get it fixed rather than blindly grasping at=3D20
> >> >> straws, having no more idea than I do how to fix it. I don't=3D20
> >> >> need that; I can do plenty of that without anyone's help if I=3D20
> >> >> want. I want to see what sort of response I get from list=3D20
> >> >> members first and then proceed from there.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The problem:
> >> >> I can be working along on the HP, when suddenly the whole=3D20
> >> >> system just seems to seize up. JAWS stops talking; my wife=3D20
> >> >> reports the mouse pointer still moves using a regular mouse=3D20
> >> >> or the touchpad, however, the mouse cannot be used to open=3D20
> >> >> the start menu or anything, and neither an external full size=3D20
> >> >> keyboard or the laptop keyboard will function. I therefore=3D20
> >> >> can't try to launch Microsoft Narrator to see if it will talk.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The above "seize up" occurs at random times. I have kept=3D20
> >> >> records showing I ran these sessions:
> >> >> 1 hour 52 min.
> >> >> 49 min.
> >> >> 6 min.
> >> >> 10 min.
> >> >> 52 min.
> >> >> 25 min.=3D20
> >> >> 58 min.
> >> >> 1 hour 6 min.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The last four usage sessions were run with the system being=3D20
> >> >> powered up from cold early in the morning and shut off around=3D20
> >> >> 6:30-7pm; so for the last two usage sessions for example, I=3D20
> >> >> ran 58 min. with no seize up, then the system just sat there=3D20
> >> >> until late afternoon/early evening, then I had a seize up=3D20
> >> >> after 1 hour 6 min.; all the other times listed, I turned the=3D20
> >> >> system on from cold and used it for the time listed before it=3D20
> >> >> seized up. =3D20
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I have checked the system several times and compared how hot=3D20
> >> >> it got compared to the Dell, and the HP system is running far=3D20
> >> >> cooler, even when comparing both laptops just sitting there=3D20
> >> >> doing nothing. So that and the random times listed would=3D20
> >> >> seem to indicate the problem isn't heat related.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> There is nothing in any kind of diagnostic I have run on the=3D20
> >> >> HP to indicate any kind of hardware failure or conflict of a=3D20
> >> >> hardware nature or a software driver.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Personally I feel the problem is JAWS and not some flaw in=3D20
> >> >> the computer components. Perhaps it is the processor, but as=3D20
> >> >> Windows XP SP2 seems to have no issues otherwise, and the=3D20
> >> >> problem only occurs with JAWS usage, that would seem to=3D20
> >> >> indicate the issue is JAWS related. If it is the processor,=3D20
> >> >> FS had better get their act together and get this figured out=3D20
> >> >> and working, because anyone shopping for a system is going to=3D20
> >> >> start ending up with processors like this.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Perhaps it is the SoundMax audio or the specific model NVIDIA=3D20
> >> >> video card. The video intercept installed fine and has=3D20
> >> >> reported no problems under any resolution or quality I've=3D20
> >> >> tried. The sound has performed fine running various=3D20
> >> >> applications other than the fact that I can't hear JAWS any=3D20
> >> >> longer once the system seizes up. Again, if the problem is=3D20
> >> >> due to one of these devices, FS had better get to fixing it=3D20
> >> >> as best they can; laptops aren't like desktops; you pretty=3D20
> >> >> much end up with integrated sound and video you have no=20
> >> choice over.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I have an investment in the JAWS software of well over $1,000=3D20
> >> >> at this point, and while I understand FS can't test or force=3D20
> >> >> their software to work with everything, I likewise shouldn't=3D20
> >> >> be pinned down to only buying machines with certain=3D20
> >> >> processors or sound or video cards.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The system is going nowhere. I am keeping the system, even=3D20
> >> >> if it takes FS several years to come up to the state of the=3D20
> >> >> art processor and other components in this HP laptop. =3D20
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I want to be very careful what I enable, disable, install or=3D20
> >> >> uninstall, lest I end up having to clean install a brand new=3D20
> >> >> laptop all because no one here on the list or at FS has any=3D20
> >> >> more idea than I do what is causing the problem and are just=3D20
> >> >> blindly grasping at straws to fix the problem. I don't need=3D20
> >> >> the latter; something is causing this problem and there is=3D20
> >> >> some way to fix it that doesn't require grasping at straws to fix.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> At this point I'd appreciate any constructive, positive=3D20
> >> >> feedback I can get on this seizing problem, as I'd like to=3D20
> >> >> begin getting full use out of my brand new laptop. No one is=3D20
> >> >> going to change my opinion of FS products so let's just stick=3D20
> >> >> to the problem at hand and leave it at that.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Oh BTW I should add that I checked the BIOS settings and=3D20
> >> >> there does not appear to be anything in there that would seem=3D20
> >> >> to be something I could disable or change that could solve=3D20
> >> >> the problem. =3D20
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The problem also does not appear to occur while using any=3D20
> >> >> particular application (such as IE, Outlook Express, etc.). =3D20
> >> >> I do not own any competing screedn reading product, and as=3D20
> >> >> the trial times for Dolphin's HAL and G.W. Micro's WindowEyes=3D20
> >> >> are only 30 minutes long, it would take me quite a long time=3D20
> >> >> running 30 min. sessions to try to stumble across one of the=3D20
> >> >> seizes that might occur within that short time frame. =3D20
> >> >> Besides which, one of the things FS did a really good job on=3D20
> >> >> was the keyboard layout for JAWS vs. the competitors=3D20
> >> >> products. I think this is just a matter of isolating what is=3D20
> >> >> causing the problem, and perhaps FS fixing some flaw in their=3D20
> >> >> product that doesn't like the processor, sound card or video=3D20
> >> >> card on this HP laptop. =3D20
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> The problem also doesn't appear to occur in a reproducable=3D20
> >> >> manner; i.e., I've had it seize up when I was really typing=3D20
> >> >> fast, but also when I wasn't - perhaps when I was just=3D20
> >> >> hitting one key after several seconds. There is just no=3D20
> >> >> pattern to it; it is like playing Russian roulette with my=3D20
> >> >> work - do something and save, do something and save, do=3D20
> >> >> something and BOOM - seize up without any warning.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> I haven't received my JAWS 6 shipment yet, so have no idea if=3D20
> >> >> JAWS 6 would resolve the problem.
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> Again, please offer any constructive, positive feedback if=3D20
> >> >> you think you have any ideas as to what might be causing the=3D20
> >> >> problem. I have client work I am trying to complete so=3D20
> >> >> please bear with me if I don't respond back quickly; I will=3D20
> >> >> try suggestions as soon as I can and get back to any of you=3D20
> >> >> as soon as possible.
> >> >> -Greg
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> --
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> >> >>=3D20
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>
>
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pranav
>
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